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24V V6 Cosworth Puma Project Rate Topic: ***** 5 Votes

#21 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 05:59 PM

Thanks Turby,

Yeah have been reading the blue book and discussing it with our local motor club guru, who builds rally cars for a living.

We agreed with what you found there, but providing I leave the front turrets and chassis rails in adding additional bits shouldn't be a problem, after all roll cages that weld onto the turrets and strut braces are strictly speaking altering the structure forward of the bulkhead lol.
Also hear what your saying re the body panels, but again, tbh I'm getting to the point where if it's not gonna be acceptable then I'm still gonna build it, just wont rally it lol.

I will however give them a bell and see what their take is on the subject ie what they deem homologated body panels to mean, it may mean I'll have to consider using FRP wings bumpers etc, rather than an aftermarket kit. Or as I said b4, maybe just not bother entering rallys, I was only going to do 1 or 2 local events per year with the car anyway !!

But thanks for the advice, it's always appreciated,

Cheers Dave
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#22 User is offline   Big Boy Al 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 06:02 PM

good luck with the frp panels we cant even get them anymore ;).

good old ford.

ill be keeping an eye on this thread very interesting stuff :)

how do you cope with the extra weight of the engine up front will it not make the car very nose heavy??.
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#23 User is offline   volcomstone411 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 07:16 PM

give andy burton a call and see how the hell he manages to unleash that beast LOL

as for panels goto chris birkbeck. he has loads LOL

This post has been edited by volcomstone411: 20 April 2010 - 07:16 PM

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#24 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 09:54 PM

Hi Guys,

Regarding FRP panels there is a Ford dealer I know of selling off cheap "old stock" FRP Bumpers, Front Wings and Rear Quarters. Front Wings were about £25 each and 1/4 Panels £15 each last week lol. I'd rather use the wider kit if I can though. Pending a call to MSA Techy's I will post up details of the dealer if I decide I don't need the FRP panels LOL.

Thanks for the positive comments guys.

Regards this "weight" issue lol, I don't understand the logic here.

The 24V BOB V6 isn't much heavier than a YB Cossie 4 pot, certainly no where near as heavy as an "all iron" Cologne V6 lol. As the V6 is also shorter than a YB the weight will sit slightly farther back so I don't imagine the weight will cause handling issues.

Personally I'd guess my engine is lighter than the stock 1.7 engine, gearbox, battery etc. This lot as standard is all sat transversly across the standard Pumas front hub centreline, and everyone raves about how well they handle !!

BTW Al, whereabouts are u in Kent, I used to live in Dartford Area and run my old gearbox business there until I sold up and moved up here for the quiet life lololol....Semi Retired and I'm busier now than I ever was "darn sarf" !!

Regards Dave

This post has been edited by Dave2302: 20 April 2010 - 09:57 PM

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#25 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:29 PM

plus the weight will be balanced out by the heavy gearbox in the middle of the car and the rear beam being a bit heavier but further back.
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#26 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:56 PM

Turby,

We have just had another good read of the Blue Book, and bandyed it round the club, interestingly one of the guys is a scrutineer.

Cheers for the links btw, proved invaluable tonite as none of our members had a book on them but we had a laptop so looked 'em up.

Consensus is, what it is actually saying is that floor and tunnel mods rearward of the bulkhead must be within the specs of the 2 drawings, which I'm sure looking at the dimensions, they will be. What it does not say is that I cannot make alterations forward of the bulkhead. Also says all mods must be ferrous material, i.e steel, which they will be.

It would seem that front wings, bonnet, boot / tailgate may be non ferrous, so the rear 1/4 panels will be the only real sticking point. As I'll be leaving the stock ones underneath the widearch ones and the cars "silhouete" will remain unchanged I think I'd "moo" that point till the cows come home lol!! May mean using steel FRP rear 1/4s "deviously stretched a bit" if push came to shove and "mooing" bullshit didn't work lol.

We don't really see anything else there that would exclude the car, so now I know what I'm talking about I'll give the MSA Techys a ring and see if I can get a written opinion from them regarding possible front chassis mods and rear 1/4 panels.

As was also pointed out to me, I'm only gonna be using it on local club events so I'm hardly likely to get a protest lodged by a national rally team, and up here our club events are crying out for more entrants, catch 22 really, if they're that fussed and it's gonna be a pain in the butt, like I said I'll not bother entering those events.

One thing is for sure, I'm definitely gonna build the car how I feel it will be best, using the view that I build all my cars with, which is basically when someone opens the bonnet / looks underneath it it will all look like it came out of the Factory that way !!

Cheers for now,

Dave

View Postwarrenpenalver, on 20 April 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

plus the weight will be balanced out by the heavy gearbox in the middle of the car and the rear beam being a bit heavier but further back.



Yeah, my thoughts exactly !!

Cheers Dave
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#27 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 11:57 AM

dave, they got away with the arches on the S1600. Might mean you have to buy them from birbeck though.
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#28 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:34 PM

View Postwarrenpenalver, on 21 April 2010 - 11:57 AM, said:

dave, they got away with the arches on the S1600. Might mean you have to buy them from birbeck though.



Cheers Warren,

Yeah I've just been checking out the car and to be quite honest as that got through I don't see mine being a problem!!

Heavily modded front turrets, slam panel and front x member plus as you say glass fibre 1/4's.

Have been on the phone today to MSA who didn't think there would be a problem, told me to put the intended panels and mods in writing to him and he will reply to it, very helpful chap. He was more concerned that the engine was a specialist one off, but when I told him Fords sold thousands of them in the Scorpio he said that was fine then, cos it's classed as a production engine !!

Suits me lol.

Regards Dave
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#29 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:53 AM

Hi Guys,

Well just a quick update, picking the Puma up Tuesday, "cannae wait" lol.

Also, "these days" lol Rally cars now have to have a CCLB, I take it that means a appointment with a Scrutineer and a very thorough MSA "MOT" then the document is issued ??

What about roll cage certification ?? The idea was to buy the CDS tubing and fabricate my own following the guidelines, specs and designs in the Blue Book to the letter.

I have hydraulic bender and a decent mig welder and in the past have always fabricated my own cages, so will the MSA just inspect the finished product and approve it, or will I be forced to buy a load of overpriced pre cut tubes (that won't fit) lol, just because they come from "XYZ" Rollcages, who have a certificate ???????

Cheers Dave

This post has been edited by Dave2302: 23 April 2010 - 10:54 AM

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#30 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 04:21 PM

Well, the Puma has landed lol, picked it up today, well chuffed.

Engine etc is out of Scorpio, stripping the Puma next !!

I haven't started the Puma up yet, (battery flat), but it turns over ok. I had to push it out into the road to put it on the trailer, and I think they got there diagnosis wrong lol....It sounds to me like the gearbox is knacked not the engine, so I may have a good 1.7 engine for sale together with ecu and loads of other bitz.

Will get it in workshop this week and see what it runs like before I strip it, then I'll be advertising all the bits for sale on here.
There is a nice clean grey interior, nice wheels with as new tyres, plus loads of other bits I won't need lol, will post soon.

Cheers Dave
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#31 User is offline   myweepuma 

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 10:25 PM

glad you got it back ok, My silver puma is sue it's test this weeks should be interesting to say the least lol
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#32 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 10:33 PM

Hi Heather,

Yes, all back safe and sound, thanks for putting me onto it, it really is a nice clean one.

Good luck wiv the MOT, hope it all goes well, let me know if you need any bitz ;)

Will post up some stripping pics soon, (lol I just read that again, sounds proper wrong), stripping the car out's wot I meant :) !!

Cheers Dave
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#33 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:49 PM

Well the Puma has landed lol.....

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I bought this clean little 1.7 Lux cheep cos the guy said the engine was knacked, but whilst pushing it in the workshop I realised it was in 2nd gear but rolling really freely, and the clutch pedal was all floppy with fluid dripping from the bellhousing !! Hmmm I thought.

Before completely stripping a project car for a build up like this I like to know what does or doesn't work, so I put a fresh battery on it and turned the key.
Barrrrooooom, started up straight away, but a hell of a racket from the bellhousing area lol. A couple of quick revs up and down and the din dissapeared to reveal a nice sweet engine, so I left it running and checked out lights, wipers, A/C, etc etc etc, all worked fine. Coded the stereo, perfect. Connected the scanner and interrogated all the ecu's, no faults and live data all good. It had been running for half hour or so, sweet as a nut and no overheating or oil / water leaks, so I switched it off, and stuck it on the lift.

All good underneath, exhaust back end pants, but its gonna be junked anyway, everything else looks good, particulaly from a no rust point of view.

It's about now I realise I've had a right result lol, it even locks and unlocks off the key and has got 3/4 tank of petrol in it !!

Now I'm contemplating the long haul ahead, with a project such as this and the weathers a bit minging, so although this was a bit un neccesary, I just had to do it lol.....

See what the 16" 12 spokes look like.....

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And try a wee badge out.....

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A big lift seeing these, yeah yeah I know, little things / little minds and all that jazz lol

So thats it, Project V6 24V Cossie 4x4 Puma has officially begun.

Back into the workshop, and onto the lift.

A quick coffee and a smoke and out with the air ratchet !!

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An afternoons work produced boxes of hoses brackets clips and all manner of nuts and bolts lololol. I have popped the driveshafts out of the outer CV's and left them in the front hubs so I can leave it on its wheels and easily move it around for now, so heres where I finished this afternoon.....

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And the reason for the racket from the bell housing ROFLMFAO.....

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One exploded clutch !! In all my years in the motor trade I have seen some shagged clutches but never ever seen a clutch this bad !!!!

So more underbonnet stripping tommorrow then onto the interior.

Cheers for looking, Dave
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#34 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:00 PM

the clutch killed the bellhousing :blink:
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#35 User is offline   FlashBastd 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 06:31 AM

The wheels do look good, I was going to fit those to mine originally, but unfortunately the offset is such that the handling suffers.

Should be fine with your somewhat "revised" setup though!

Will they be big enough to not look lost inside the S1600 arches though?
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#36 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 07:52 AM

Warren, Yeah bellhousings dead lol, but the gearbox guts seem fine so it'll do to rebuild another box.

flash, Yeah don't know if the wheels will fill the S1600 arches yet, but I already had 2 sets of the wheels so will wait and see when I get the body kit.

6.5 x16 s with the same (40) offset worked fine with Billys on my 4x4 Sapphire Sierra tho handling wise, and after all, floorpan and running gear wise this car will just be a shortened and lighter version of the old Saff. Standard 4x4 Sierra track is wider than Puma too.

Well I'm off to the workshop now for episode 2 lol.....

Cheers Dave
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#37 User is offline   myweepuma 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:57 AM

Funny thats what happend to my 1.7's gearbox after having a new clutch fitted!

the place that fitted it replaced the clutch for free but i had to get a second hand box

I'll keep you in mind when it comes to the MOT lol

there is a rattling noise coming from the drivers front wheel been there for months now and well doesn't matter how many times we've had it looked at no one seems to find the problem so gonna see what the MOT throws up!


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#38 User is offline   volcomstone411 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 04:43 PM

i'd get a custom cages cage. they fit crap lol, but usually their bars are overlength so can be cut to right size. i think you should get frp rear arches, i think they are lighter than the fibreglass ones. You can also pull them out a little bit if you want.

I can't believe those parts were so cheap, get a few now before it gets damaged.

The front frp wings are aluminium and weigh hardly anything and are really strong.
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#39 User is offline   Dave2302 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 07:21 PM

MWP,

Buggers they should have sorted yr gearbox as well under warranty. I bet I could find yr rattle, shame you're not a bit nearer !!

V411,

Well I was gonna buy a kit cage, but when I read on here how crap they fit and how much they charge for what is ostensibly 2 - 3 lengths of CDS tubing and a days work cutting and bending I decided not to buy one !! I've just bought a brand new 12 ton hydraulic tube bender, and found a local supplier who will deliver the CDS tube and a load of pre cut 3mm plates to my sizes, so I'm gonna make my own cage following the drawings in the "MSA Blue Book" and some lol. I've made spaceframe chassis and rollcages in the past with a hired bender.

Jurys out on the panels atm but I know someone who bought 2 sets and a rear bumper, Oh the joys of having a good mate in a FMD ;)
The other set or 2 went on ebay auction and made about 7 times more money !!
I may use the FRP ones or may go wider, but the panels are a long way off right now lol.
Cheers for the advice tho, always appreciated.

Right, onto episode 2 todays saga.......

Had a good clear up and shelved all the bits removed yesterday up in the workshop loft, and plugged all the orifices on the engine and stuck it under the bench ready for a buyer.

Removed everything from under the bonnet thats gonna come off at this stage, and the rest will come out once the dash is out.
Whilst its all fresh in my mind I carefully labelled all wiring plugs and pipes that may or may not be going back on, so when I'm building it up and making the wiring loom, it will all be fool proof, (not neccesarily Dave proof) lol, but fool proof none the less !!

Moved underneath and removed fuel tank and decanted its 3/4 full contents into me Explorer, which will no doubt eat that lot in double quick time :(

Exhaust off, fuel pipes off, gear linkage off, front wheelarch liners off, air intake pipes under n/s/f wing off, charcoal canister off, spare wheel and carrier off, and unclipped all brake pipes and h / brake cable.

Dropped it down off the lift, shoved it outside and had another good old clear up racking all the bits upstairs again.

By now it looks like this.....

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Coffee and smoke break and on to the interior.....

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Carefully removed everything from front seats backwards.....

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OMG, the bin men are never gonna take this lot lolol.....

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So I better carefully rack it all in workshop loft in case anyone wants to buy any of it !!

Another tidy up, push car back in workshop for the night, round 3 tommorrow..... Dash, heater, all wiring, and the remains under the bonnet of brake linkage, servo and fuse box to come out.

Have been having a measure up and so far the only problem I can foresee is the new transmission tunnel around the bell housing is gonna be tight around the heater area inside the car, but I'm determined to keep the Pumas heater even if I have to mod it a bit.

Don't see a problem with the engine size, in fact there should be plenty of room width ways to fit the Turbo(s) and associated bits and bobs. ABS should be abe to stay where it is, relocate brake master cylinder to drivers side, possibly using remote servo(s), dunno yet will wait until engines sat in the bay for a trial !!

My brain is always about a week ahead on a project like this, and I always place everything where it's gonna go to see where it's all gonna fit before starting any cutting and welding. Learned all that the hard way about 30 years ago when I was building my first Rally Car, a Mini Cooper S !!

Cheers for now guys and gals,

Dave
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#40 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 07:39 PM

What a bargain with the Puma. Shame you did not land a good but actually shot engine one, then again you can sell that engine to someone with a shot one :)

Thank you for sharing your progress, interesting to read.
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