Help
A few questions on FRP parts so I can plan my suspension mods I am looking to need for an F2 kit.
1. On the FRP upright what was modied to fit the FRP strut if anything? Has the upright been modified to take account of the increased camber by having the strut top turrets in the same place despite the lower arm pushing the upright out?
2. other than spring rates/damp/rebound is there anything physically differant to a normal strut? Ie. Strut top mounting, strut to upright mounting, overall length and diameter of spring?
3. What is the relationship between the length of the lower arm and handling? (not overall track althougth they are related.) I ask as would lengthening the lower arm further have detrimental effect on handling? (disregarding camber issue due to strut top as I plan to solve that with adjustable top mounts or cut and shut turrets if I don't get the movement I need from adjustable top mounts)
4. would widening the suspension subframe be better for handling than length of lower arm?
If anyone has a sort of technical answer then I would be grateful so I can get my old maths books and engineering books to do some calculating and design!
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FRP uprights, lower arms and struts.
#1
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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:53 PM
#2
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Posted 01 September 2004 - 01:21 PM
Hi,
Why do you want to fit FRP running gear under an F2 arch kit as the arches will make the track look a little out of place. For instance, I know someone with an ex-works S1400 who was considering putting an FRP kit on it instead of the F2 evo, so that the track would fill the arches better.
I'm planning on doing a widetrack conversion to my 1.7, I'm not the oracle by any means but the following may help...
1. To widetrack the front successfully I believe that you need the following from an FRP: hubs, lower wishbones (+33.7mm), driveshafts, and steering rack extensions. As far as I know the hubs have been modified to take account of the increased camber.
To widetrack the rear you need an RS2000 (4x4) disc brake conversion and a pair of aluminium spacers for the hubs (+40mm).
2. Pass (ask ALan@Pumabuild), but the top strut mounting position was not altered on a standard FRP. Who does adjustable top mounts for a puma?
3. How far do you want to lengthen the lower arms by! are you planning on lengthing them yourself?
4. Theoretically they would both have the same result, although the camber of the hub would have to be bespoke in relation the degree of widetracking you are planning on.
This might help: a standard puma if 1674mm wide, a evo kitted S1600 is approximately 1830mm wide, the track is roughly 78 mm wider on average at each corner, whereas an FRP is +35mm at the front, and +45mm at the rear.
I hope the above helps in some way, I'm a year or so off widetracking mine as I haven't got the funds together yet, but keep us posted on your progress and idea's, and good luck with it, the widebodied puma's look absolutely jaw-droppingly awesome!
Good luck!
Mike.
Why do you want to fit FRP running gear under an F2 arch kit as the arches will make the track look a little out of place. For instance, I know someone with an ex-works S1400 who was considering putting an FRP kit on it instead of the F2 evo, so that the track would fill the arches better.
I'm planning on doing a widetrack conversion to my 1.7, I'm not the oracle by any means but the following may help...
1. To widetrack the front successfully I believe that you need the following from an FRP: hubs, lower wishbones (+33.7mm), driveshafts, and steering rack extensions. As far as I know the hubs have been modified to take account of the increased camber.
To widetrack the rear you need an RS2000 (4x4) disc brake conversion and a pair of aluminium spacers for the hubs (+40mm).
2. Pass (ask ALan@Pumabuild), but the top strut mounting position was not altered on a standard FRP. Who does adjustable top mounts for a puma?
3. How far do you want to lengthen the lower arms by! are you planning on lengthing them yourself?
4. Theoretically they would both have the same result, although the camber of the hub would have to be bespoke in relation the degree of widetracking you are planning on.
This might help: a standard puma if 1674mm wide, a evo kitted S1600 is approximately 1830mm wide, the track is roughly 78 mm wider on average at each corner, whereas an FRP is +35mm at the front, and +45mm at the rear.
I hope the above helps in some way, I'm a year or so off widetracking mine as I haven't got the funds together yet, but keep us posted on your progress and idea's, and good luck with it, the widebodied puma's look absolutely jaw-droppingly awesome!
Good luck!
Mike.
#3
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Posted 01 September 2004 - 03:27 PM
F2 and FRP front end are totally incompatible.
My adivce is
1) stick with FRP parts (assuming you can get some second hand and straight),
2) get the proper F2 parts (but this will set you back serious money)
3) develop a kit of bits yourself but chassis set-up is not exactly easy to get right and getting it wrong could be fatal.
My adivce is
1) stick with FRP parts (assuming you can get some second hand and straight),
2) get the proper F2 parts (but this will set you back serious money)
3) develop a kit of bits yourself but chassis set-up is not exactly easy to get right and getting it wrong could be fatal.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing (Alexander Pope - 1709)
Stop being spoon fed and GOOGLE it!
Stop being spoon fed and GOOGLE it!
#4
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Posted 01 September 2004 - 03:43 PM
I've got frp lower arms already. I don't intend to use FRP bits without further modification, eg wishbones.
I will use these as a template to design wider ones to suit an F2 kit using Ford Racings method of widening.
I intend to use two sets of lower arms to build one wider set by cutting in different places to maintain the cross section with an additional FRP style plate welded to the bottom and an inverted "T" section bar welded in the trough on the upper side of the lower arm to add strength and reduce flex and potentially stress related fatigue failures.
These lower arms will be seriously heavy but I feel the strength is worth an extra 2kg or so per side, which I can save using lighter wieght componants elsewere.
How did they modify the hub? was the strut attachment modified to suit the camber or was it the bearing face for the rotating parts so they rotate about a different axis relative to the normal uprights.
Adjustable top mounts are made by K-mac and are weld on for the FWD fords (except focus) and if they do not provide sufficient movement to compensate for wider lower arms then a cut'n'shut of the turret tops may be called for.
Does anyone know the accurate track front and rear for a S1600 and also what alloy width and offset was used?
I ask because from what I understand is that track is measured from wheel centre to wheel centre, with offset from wheel centre (looking from front of car) to the wheel mounting face and hence if you know the track, wheel width and wheel offset you can calculate the distance from wheel mounting face to wheel mounting face on the other side, so you can design the suspension to use any offset wheels (ie easily obtainable) and get it to fully fill the arches.
Where is the rear beam hub spacer fitted? is it between wheel and disc, disc and hub face, (both needing longer studs), hub mounting and caliper mounting braket (metal thing bolted to rear beam that has caliper bolt holes) or is it mounted between the caliper mounting bracket and the rear beam itself?
I intend to widen by the last method as I feel it allows extra strenthening to be added clear of the rotating parts.
I am considering using a mondeo rear beam or an Escort rear beam as they are wider to start with and may be easier to use the entire subframe for suspension simplicity. I realise I would need a custom tank and ditch the spare but this option allows me the ability to use 4x4 mondeo or 4x4 rs2000 gear for a later 4wd project.
Is the 1830mm accurate for front and rear (ie, width of body, not wheels) as I need to know this for my calculations as to what the overall track is as well as width from outside edge of wheels so I can fill the arches to make it look right.
My project is ambitious and I intend to get a lot of the work done professionally with me designing some parts and supplying parts for modification to a reputable machine shop/welder.
I will use these as a template to design wider ones to suit an F2 kit using Ford Racings method of widening.
I intend to use two sets of lower arms to build one wider set by cutting in different places to maintain the cross section with an additional FRP style plate welded to the bottom and an inverted "T" section bar welded in the trough on the upper side of the lower arm to add strength and reduce flex and potentially stress related fatigue failures.
These lower arms will be seriously heavy but I feel the strength is worth an extra 2kg or so per side, which I can save using lighter wieght componants elsewere.
How did they modify the hub? was the strut attachment modified to suit the camber or was it the bearing face for the rotating parts so they rotate about a different axis relative to the normal uprights.
Adjustable top mounts are made by K-mac and are weld on for the FWD fords (except focus) and if they do not provide sufficient movement to compensate for wider lower arms then a cut'n'shut of the turret tops may be called for.
Does anyone know the accurate track front and rear for a S1600 and also what alloy width and offset was used?
I ask because from what I understand is that track is measured from wheel centre to wheel centre, with offset from wheel centre (looking from front of car) to the wheel mounting face and hence if you know the track, wheel width and wheel offset you can calculate the distance from wheel mounting face to wheel mounting face on the other side, so you can design the suspension to use any offset wheels (ie easily obtainable) and get it to fully fill the arches.
Where is the rear beam hub spacer fitted? is it between wheel and disc, disc and hub face, (both needing longer studs), hub mounting and caliper mounting braket (metal thing bolted to rear beam that has caliper bolt holes) or is it mounted between the caliper mounting bracket and the rear beam itself?
I intend to widen by the last method as I feel it allows extra strenthening to be added clear of the rotating parts.
I am considering using a mondeo rear beam or an Escort rear beam as they are wider to start with and may be easier to use the entire subframe for suspension simplicity. I realise I would need a custom tank and ditch the spare but this option allows me the ability to use 4x4 mondeo or 4x4 rs2000 gear for a later 4wd project.
Is the 1830mm accurate for front and rear (ie, width of body, not wheels) as I need to know this for my calculations as to what the overall track is as well as width from outside edge of wheels so I can fill the arches to make it look right.
My project is ambitious and I intend to get a lot of the work done professionally with me designing some parts and supplying parts for modification to a reputable machine shop/welder.
#5
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Posted 01 September 2004 - 03:49 PM
AN other idea I have is to get someone like DJ motorsport to move the turrets towards the wing by say x mm on each side and then widening the front subframe intself by x mm each side. The idea being that when using frp lower arms and hubs/struts the relative geometry of each machphearson strut assembly will remain the same even though the overall track is wider.
#6 Guest_Matt and Tiggr_*
Posted 01 September 2004 - 03:59 PM
Talk to Tony at PS. He has built at least one F2 kitted Puma (although the first used cossie bits and bobs)
He should be able to supply the bits you need.
HTH
He should be able to supply the bits you need.
HTH
#7
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Posted 02 September 2004 - 01:38 PM
Doe any of you rally nuts out there know the dimensions I need?
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