Pumapeople: 24V V6 Cosworth Puma Project - Pumapeople

Jump to content

  • 43 Pages +
  • « First
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

24V V6 Cosworth Puma Project Rate Topic: ***** 5 Votes

#61 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 02 May 2010 - 05:40 PM

P2010,

Thanks for the kind words, always nice to know folks are interested ;)

Well onto todays work in progress.....

Had a good clear up this morning and racked and stored all the bits removed from the Scorpio yesterday and then onto removing a few more bits and lifting out the V6 Engine.....

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Yep, you've guessed it Coffee and Cigar time :)

Out with the tape measure and had a good measure up, came up with some very interesting facts, (well for me and this project) lol !!

The width across the Scorpio front wheelarches is only 3" wider than stock Puma.

The front chassis rails in the Puma are much wider apart than those in the Scorpio, sort of surprising but then logical as the Puma is a transverse set up as standard.

The shape design and height of the bulkheads from the ground upwards is as near identical as to make no difference.

The Scorpio transmission tunnel is not as wide or as tall as I thought it would be.

The Scorpio brake servo although a lot more powerful than the Puma one is a smaller diameter, but deeper.

The shape of the bonnet (ie curvature downwards), from the windscreens to the front of the cars is almost identcal.

And finally the Puma engine bay is a fair bit shorter than the Scorpio, hardly surprising that one lol.

All of the above apart from the final one will work to my advantage.

Okay so enuf bullsh1t,

out with the hacksaw and quickly rough cut off the Pumas battery tray bracket, and then another little look see.....

Posted Image

It's in the hole lol, cant get it low enuf yet cos the Pumas rack and crossmember is in the way but very encouraging, its got to go down another 4" - 5" which means the bonnet will shut easily. First worry out of the way :)

Wow, look at all that room down the sides of the engine.....

Posted Image

Posted Image

This will be an absolute doddle to fit a pair of turbos later on !! Second worry trashed :)

Length wise, the engine has got to go towards the bulkhead another 2"-3", but Puma rack / crossmember is stopping it atm, but never fear cos they've gotta be junked anyway, to cut the transmission tunnel in. Photo is not that good, but there is actually a 3" plus clearance at the back.....

Posted Image

At the moment the front of the engine, EDIS coil pack and Pulleys just hits the bonnet slam panel, but remember it's gonna go 2"-3" further back.....


Posted Image

so the radiator should sit in the standard Puma location, 3rd worry gone :) :) :)

So whipped it back out and stored it in the corner for now.

All in all a very productive day.

Tommorrow, out with the Scorpio centre console, dash. and heater / AC unit. Then start the mammoth task of removing the Scorpio wiring loom and all modules, labelling everything in the process as per before !!

Thanks for looking,

Cheers Dave
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

#62 User is offline   dawesy 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 206
  • Joined: 14-October 09

Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:41 PM

looking good so far.
its amaizing how things seem to fit.
hope i have the same luck putting the 3S-GTE in the back of my corolla:wacko:
my other toy has 470bhp

#63 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 03 May 2010 - 06:34 PM

Dawesy,

Thanks for the kind words.

Nice Idea with the Corrolla. I'd love to see that.

I've been doing more measuring up today and can't beleive how well this is all gonna fit !!

Cheers.




Well, todays efforts, not a lot on the picture front, doesn't look like much has happened :( , but I can assure you it has, I've been slaving away with the Scorpio all day !!

First balls up of the project, I should have coded the Puma's keys to the Scorpio PATS before I pulled out the Scorpio engine and box then I could have made sure it started lol.....

But I came up with a plan, which I think has worked,

Reconnected battery on the Scorpio, and checked its alarm set with its fob and ignition powered up with both its red master key and the regular key, all okay.

The Puma keys obviously won't turn the Scorpio ignition / steering lock barrell on and off so I removed the column shroud and popped off the electrical bit of igniton switch from the back of the Scorpio steering lock. Inserted a small screwdriver to turn ignition switch from '0' to 'II' (off to ign on).

Put the red key in the Scorpio steering lock, switched on and off with screwdriver, red PATS LED gives a flash, quickly remove red Scorpio key and insert Puma key, switch on and off, PATS LED gives another flash, then quickly do the same with the Puma "spare" key, another flash of LED, then remove all keys from car.

Now unfortunately I can't test the starter solenoid for voltage cos I've got no autobox inhibitor switch in or associated wiring :(, but I tried the following tests.....

No keys in car, switched on ignition with screwdriver, as if trying to steal the car, PATS LED flashes at a rate of knots, presumably signalling that the car is immobilized.

Now inserted Puma key into ignition, turned on ignition switch with screwdriver, PATS LED blinks once and goes off. presumably signalling that PATS is allowing car to start. All other keys produced the same result, so theoretically I have now programmed the Puma keys to the Scorpio PATS ;)
I hope so cos this has been bugging me.

Then started stripping out the wiring from under Scorpio bonnet plus all hoses pipes solenoids brackets modules in fact everything that I wil need and some bits that I may need. Also due to the considerable bulk of the Scorpio wiring looms, I had to remove a fair few bits to get it all free and separated neatly. A considerable task as I've also labelled every sigle wiring plug and vac pipe etc etc.

The route it takes is an arse lol, working from the bulkhead N/S of the car down the inner wings, through various small apertures at the front of the car, across the front panel in front of the radiator area, and then back along the O/S inner wing and up to the bulkhead.

Quite a lot of bits had to come out to get it all free, so next I can move onto inside the car.

Have made a small start inside now, stripped out centre console, gear shifter unit, handbrake lever, climate control module and panel, stereo, lower drivers side dash panel / cubby box and dash clock set. The only plus side in here is I had the dash out completely 2 years ago to fit a new heater matrix, so all the multiplugs are already labelled, had forgotten I'd done that, so that will save a bit of time tommorrow, when I'll be pulling the passenger side glovebox and then the dash panel and heater box etc etc,.

Then I can remove the whole loom from this side of the bulkhead with all modules, relays etc etc, and after that strip out the wiring to the back of the car as well.

The idea is I will then have all the Scorpio looms and sub looms on the workshop floor, so then I can start unwrapping them all and removing all the wires I definitely don't need, keeping all wires I do need, and separating those I may need later, such as A/C Climate control etc which I can then make into a sub loom if needs be.

Well it all makes sense to me lol, theres gonna be a fair few quid in scrap copper cos there is a load of wires I know I dont need lol, these Scorpio looms are huge. There must be a few miles of cabling in this car, cos it is a top of the range Ultima model, and fully specced. I'm determined to transfer some of its better goodies to the Puma if possible, like heated washer jets and climate control, if I can make it work with whatever combination of heater bits I end up using !!

At the end of the day I got the tape measure on the Puma and Scorpio, and looked at the following, measurement from engine mount centre to rear of engine, and front of engine, marked where subframe will sit in Puma, this will def leave the engine exactly where it should be :)

Then I measured bulkhead with a view to welding in the tunnel and it all looks compatible :)

Also measured centre to centre where 4x4 anti rollbar mounts will sit, compared them to Puma chassis rails, looks bang on :)

Finally measured width of outer side of Scorpio front chassis rails, between front subframe mounts, these are identical on the outside as the inside of the Puma chassis rails, so if i decide to I could cut these out and weld them over the Puma ones in this area to give neatly fabricated front subframe mounts :)

So thats about it for today folks, more stripping of the Scorpio tommorow :)

Todays mess lmao.....

Posted Image

Thanks for your interest, keep the comments coming,

Cheers Dave
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

#64 User is offline   FlashBastd 

  • Group: Validating
  • Posts: 3900
  • Joined: 17-August 08
  • Location:West Yorks

Posted 03 May 2010 - 07:20 PM

I am in awe of your progress! Good luck!
2005 Vauxhall VX220 Turbo
2000 Ford Focus 1.6i Ghia
2006 Renault Clio 2.0i RenaultSport 197 - SOLD
2005 Honda CR-V 2.0i Executive auto
2001 Ford Puma 1.7i Black

#65 User is offline   bouncy 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 265
  • Joined: 03-April 09

Posted 03 May 2010 - 07:46 PM

Cracking job Dave, but this is gunna cost a fortune in Cigars!!!!!

#66 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4142
  • Joined: 22-January 04
  • Location:Stoke on Trent

Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:07 PM

Scorpio runs on EECV as well doesnt it?? if so lucky man as you can get it to run in the puma no worries. No silly tacho issues etc.
Posted Image


#67 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:36 PM

Thanks Bouncy,

Yeah yuo're right :) I could probably buy a pair of seats and harnesses when I need 'em if I gave up the Hamlets now lmao.

Yeah Warren its EECV, but the PATS is in a separate module so that's why I gotta use the Scorpio Pats with Puma keys.

I was wondering about the rev counter, you reckon it'll be okay even though mines a 6 cylinder yeah ?? It will be if it's reading RPM from the ECU, what about the engine temp gauge, wonder if that'll work of the Scorpio ECU cos the Scorpio's have a separate "old stylee" extra temp sender for their gauge, but then again if the Puma gauge will read coolant temp from the Scorpio ECU I might get lucky !!

I'll be looking at the wiring in depth once I've got all the Scorpio wiring out and stripped back, will need pin outs for the Puma 1.7 EECV ECU if anyones got 'em ???

Otherwise I'll have to get my mate from Ford to send me up a Puma wiring print out

I already have all the Scorpio diagrams and pin outs, and according to the Ford Guru what I did earlier with the keys and the flashing of the LED means I have succesfully coded the Puma keys to work with the Scorpio PATS module. Yeaaay :) :) :)

I will however have to fit the Scorpios PATS LED on the Puma dash for future PATS diagnostic info, cos Scorpio PATS LED info won't work on the Puma alarm LED. Worth knowing at this stage but no big deal to drill a small hole in the top of the Puma dash lol.

As always, cheers for the input guys,

Dave


It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

#68 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4142
  • Joined: 22-January 04
  • Location:Stoke on Trent

Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:57 AM

rpm signal is an rpm signal whatever size of engine! getting it direct from ecu is best as its a corrected feed. engine temp is read from ecu on late pumas!
Posted Image


#69 User is offline   poder 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 323
  • Joined: 21-March 07
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:39 AM

Amazing how fast you progress there!

Thanks for sharing :cool:

Cheers

#70 User is offline   dawesy 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 206
  • Joined: 14-October 09

Posted 04 May 2010 - 08:17 AM

good luck with the wiring, at least fords use a fairly modular system so should be relatively straight forward.
sell the scrap copper to your local scrap dealer. i took some bits of copper pipe down to sims metal, our local scrap dealer and got quite a few quid for it.:blink:
keep it coming, going well so far.
thanks for the comments on the corolla, ill keep you updated if you like.
its already had the 3S-GTE conversion but its in the front and with 470BHP and 380ftlbs its not exactly got much traction:wacko:
my other toy has 470bhp

#71 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:32 AM

Thanks for the comments guys, as always very very welcome.

Warren,

sounds like the temp gauge may be okay then, do you know, is it actually read from the wiring at the ECU plug or does the Puma ECU have a separate pin to output to gauge ??? That could be the fly in the ointment if the Scorpio ECU does not have this output ???

Dawesy,

Rather than rear mounted, have you looked at 4x4 ing it, might be easier with stock 4x4 components, and yeah send me some pics if ya like.

Off to do battle with Scorpio interior and wiring,

Update later,

Cheers

Dave
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

#72 User is offline   FlashBastd 

  • Group: Validating
  • Posts: 3900
  • Joined: 17-August 08
  • Location:West Yorks

Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:36 AM

Dave,

Puma ECU outputs temp gauge from a specific pin, which changed at least once by model year.

Not sure if this is good news or bad...
2005 Vauxhall VX220 Turbo
2000 Ford Focus 1.6i Ghia
2006 Renault Clio 2.0i RenaultSport 197 - SOLD
2005 Honda CR-V 2.0i Executive auto
2001 Ford Puma 1.7i Black

#73 User is offline   bouncy 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 265
  • Joined: 03-April 09

Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:37 PM

I thought the temp gauge uses a seperate sensor, unless its running CAN. Dave has the puma engine youve taken out got 2 sensors, ECT and temp? Cant see any info as regarding the temp gauge from the ECU data I have - but it is a little vague!!!

Oh and according to the info I have the tacho uses pin 48 on both cars!

#74 User is offline   FlashBastd 

  • Group: Validating
  • Posts: 3900
  • Joined: 17-August 08
  • Location:West Yorks

Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:48 PM

One of the differences between the TAPE and DIVE Puma ECU's is that they output the temp gauge from different pins, so when I changed to a TAPE ECU I initially had no temp gauge, until the pin was manually moved in the multi-plug.
2005 Vauxhall VX220 Turbo
2000 Ford Focus 1.6i Ghia
2006 Renault Clio 2.0i RenaultSport 197 - SOLD
2005 Honda CR-V 2.0i Executive auto
2001 Ford Puma 1.7i Black

#75 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4142
  • Joined: 22-January 04
  • Location:Stoke on Trent

Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:42 PM

look at the ECU in your cars to find out whats what.

The ECT feeds into ecu pin 38. dash temp read out comes from pin 75 or 80.

if your scorpio ecu doesnt output ECT then you need to do some measuring. measure the voltage range produced on a working puma on the dash feed from pin 75 or 80. the sensor itself uses a 5v signal and the amount it gets back is dependant on temp.

you just need to check that the dash uses the same 5v signal. if it does you just need to take a clean feed from the right pin which your ECT feeds into (making sure you dont loose signal quality) or better still, check your second coolant sensor and if it gives off the same voltage reference the temp gauge can use then use that so you dont risk damaging the sensor feed to the ecu. You could also put a ECT sensor in the old guage sensor location if that is what you need to get a voltage range to work the guage. remember you want to avoid damaging the voltage reaching the ecu as ECT is critical to good engine running.
Posted Image


#76 User is offline   warrenpenalver 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4142
  • Joined: 22-January 04
  • Location:Stoke on Trent

Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:44 PM

Found the windscreen loom!
Posted Image

Havent got a switch or relay but they are easy to find on egay or rob a fiesta in scrappy.
Posted Image


#77 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:28 PM

Cheers guys,

I'm not sure the Scorpio ECU outputs engine temp.

My Puma had a "Tape" ECU in it and no separate sender on the engine, just the ECT.

I may try using the Scorpio's separate temp gauge sensor first but tbh I think temp gauge is the least of my problems after todays work lololol.

Spent all day stripping the looms from Scorpio and labelling everything. Then trying to identify what I definitely need, what I definitely dont need, and what I may need, and then started to separate it all.

Problem is there is at least 4 major looms, which all interconnect via 2 multi layer fuse boxes, also there is interconnection between different coloured and apparantly un related wiring inside the looms.

So far I've hardly made a dent in it !! Just about got the A/C / Climate loom separated but even that has a few "not sure's" labelled on it as they end up at the dash clock set ???

Also got the underbonnet loom separated which plugs into the 2 engine / gearbox multiplugs and the EECV, and also has PATS module attached, and have isolated and separated the wiring to the Ign key chip reader unit.

Feck, monster headache now, gonna take a packet of aspirin and go bed lol.

Warren, pm me how much for loom and I'll give you address, thanks.

Also, can anyone give me all the pin outs for "Tape" ECU 1.7 Puma with A/C plz plz plz ???

Thanks everyone for the kind words and info, it is appreciated.

Cheers Dave
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

#78 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 05 May 2010 - 08:20 PM

Thanks to all who've helped out with Puma wiring info etc, cheers guys.

Well, here's whats been happening over the last couple of days lol.....

Posted Image

Posted Image

Have basically removed everything electrical plus Heater / A/C / Climate Control unit, pedal box, gear shifter, servo, master cyl, ABS / Traction, pipes etc etc from front end of the Scorpio. Separated the definitely needed wiring and modules, separated an A/C Climate Control sub loom as its looking ore like this system will fit easier once the tunnells welded in :)

Have boxed and labelled it all, stuffed it all in the loft and forgot about wiring for now lol.

Stripped front and rear discs and calipers off, tow bar and fuel tank, rear driveshafts, rear anti rollbar, front anti rollbar, and have loosened / separated all suspension and subframe bolts. I have just left a bare minimum so I can stuff some wheels on Scorpio and push it outside into a corner somewhere.

Several Coffee and Cigar breaks during this little lot ;)

I won't need half this stuff but I'd rather keep it all atm, then when I'm halfway thru the build up and I need a different pedal pin or whatsit thingumybob, I wont be kicking myself cos it went to the scrappy on the old bodyshell lol.

Will do this tommorrow, then jack it up on blocks, drop front and rear subframes, whip out the seats and carpets, then I can begin cutting out the whole floorpan and chassis front to rear.

I wont be using all of it but once it's out in a lump I can cut it down to size, un pick spotwelds where neccessary and generally get the bits I need just slightly oversize for the Puma.

I won't be using the front subframe, cos it's not suitable for 4x4, but it's main mounting points are in exactly the same place as a 4x4 one so it will do for fabricating the forward chassis mountings on the Puma before I get hold of a 4x4 cast ally front subframe.

Scorpio looks like this now, dem feckin' baillifs have been round again :) .....

Posted Image

Posted Image

Cheers for looking,

Dave
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

#79 User is offline   dawesy 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 206
  • Joined: 14-October 09

Posted 06 May 2010 - 11:45 AM

quite a bit of work done already.
glad to see your thinking ahead, its amazing how often we throw something only to realize we need it later on.
will defo be keeping an eye on this one, some excellent work going on.
my other toy has 470bhp

#80 User is offline   Dave2302 

  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 583
  • Joined: 01-April 10
  • Location:NW Scotland Highlands

Posted 06 May 2010 - 06:37 PM

Cheers Dawesy,

Fanks for the kind words.

Well I had to do some household stuff this morning, banking, bill paying etc.

But got cracking this afternoon. Unbolted everything else inside the Scorpio, and got all the bits out I'm gonna keep, put all the rest in the boot as far back as I could to enable me to cut out the rear diff mount beam, chassis mounts etc. Then I will move forward to start cutting the floorpan, tunnel bulkhead, chassis etc out. I should start on this tommorrow once the Puma's back on the lift and I've dropped its rear beam and started measuring up.

I've decided to start at the back of the Puma and get the rear beam in as the back end looks to be a lot harder than the front end to install in a "factory fitted" original looking stylee.

Yeah, it surprised me too, but the back end is definitely gonna be harder than the front.

So mid afternoon saw the Scorpio ready to push out to it's final, (for now), resting place.

Pushed it out and over to the concrete base, jacked 'er up and carefully placed 4 axle stands so they won't interfere with the forthcoming "disc cutter massacre" :)

Coffee and cigar break ;)

Another hour or so, and with the aid of the wheelbarrow ;) saw the front and rear subframes placed outside the workshop, and the struts and shocks (nearly new) racked for resale.....

Posted Image

Posted Image

So thats about it for today, had a monster clear up and put all the tools away, swept the workshop out and put a few more bits upstairs.

I will get the Puma onto the lift tommorrow and remove its rear beam axle and start carefully sizing up and measuring where the "new" rear end mounts are gonna go.
I shall probably make some form of jig as well to hold the "new" wheel hubs centres exactly where the Puma's are to keep all the geometry in the right ball park. I expect I will also allow for some adjustment provision to allow it to all be set up once its built. A few carefully placed elongated holes or similair, to allow slight track and camber castor adjustments should be all thats neccesary. May well make the rear ARB adjustable as well.

The Scorpio, in it's penultimate resting place, looking very sorry for itself :( .....

Posted Image

TTFN,

Dave
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice !!

Share this topic:


  • 43 Pages +
  • « First
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic