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Conventional Tuning Vs Won Nitrous A comparrison of overlooked aspects of NA Vs WON

#1 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 10:32 PM

Chris decided to "bear bait" me on the subject discussed on the following thread; <a href="http://www.pumapeople.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=70034&st=100" target="_blank">http://www.pumapeople.com/forum/index.php?showto...0034&st=100</a>

Therefore any complaints about my response should be directed at him (lol)

I decided to start a new thread rather than add to the original thread, as it had gone well off track by the end and I thought it would be better this way.

The main thrust of this thread is to consider ALL the associated factors of enhancing engine performance using normally aspirated tuning methods, compared to using WON nitrous injection. I must emphasise that the following comparison ONLY applies to WON systems and NO OTHER, because WON systems have many UNIQUE, beneficial features. Since Chris is responsible for enticing me to make this post, I'd like to emphasise the fact that my PRIMARY reason for making this post is NOT to advertise my products, it is to share my HUGE wealth of knowledge and experience, with anyone who cares to take it on board.

Just ensure there is no doubt about my ability to deal with both sides of this issue fairly, let me state for the record that before I started working with nitrous, I was a very successful conventional tuner. Furthermore, it is ESSENTIAL to have a comprehensive understanding of ALL aspects of engine design/performance, to achieve the outstanding results I and my customers have produced when using nitrous.

Before I get in to the main thrust of the subject, I'd like to deal with a couple of associated points that I picked up on whilst reading the original thread:

1) I can confirm that the MOST important aspect of head tuning is a 3 angle valve job.

2) It is also the cheapest and most cost effective modification you can do to head.

3) Polishing ports is detrimental to performance.

4) The shape of the port is far more important than the finish of the port wall

5) To be fair to SOME head specialists, the appropriate modifications to make a "reasonable" improvement to the flow through a head, can often be very subtle and only an expert could see the difference.

6) The cheapest way to improve the flow of a head, is to take the head to a local machine shop and have them carry out a 3 angle valve job. Buy a roll of 1" wide coarse emery cloth, then get a 6" length of 1/2" bar and cut a 1" long slot in one end. Cut a length of tape off the roll and insert one end in the slot. Coil the tape round the bar till it fits snuggly in the intake port. Insert the bar in a drill and with the drill running, work the bar down the port to remove any irregularities.

7) To get a result better than you will achieve using the above techniques, it would take major head work by an expert that would be likely to cost £1,000+ to be carried out correctly.

8) To achieve worthwhile benefits from NA mods, it's often essential to carry out a number of mods together.

9) Whatever power you can gain using other techniques (NA, turbo or blower), nitrous can increase it even more. It would even be possible to increase the power of an F1 engine using nitrous, if it was allowed.

10) It is often said that NA power is constantly available but that is not strictly true, because it takes time using NA power to reach the higher power levels desired, whereas with nitrous the performance enhancement is INSTANT. Furthermore, what use is power that is always available, when it is IMPOSSIBLE to drive a car at constant WOT, even on open roads, never mind on our crowded roads as they are today?

Now to the core of the thread. The following negative factors associated with NA tuning are often overlooked:

1) Conventional tuning involves raising the upper rpm working limit of the engine. This increases the stress on ALL engine components (making them more likely to fail) and increases the wear rate. Component changes that are suitable for achieving higher rpm power, themselves increase component wear rate and stress on some of the other engine components, as well as causing losses in low to mid range power/torque. Such changes also adversely affect idle, low speed drivability and the overall economy of the car.

2) You usually start off with a well designed and well assembled engine (courtesy of the manufacturer) but now you're going to entrust that engine to someone who is unlikely to be as well equipped, yet they are claiming to do a better job in carrying out more complex work. In the main that's unlikely (although there are obviously some companies that can achieve that), so there is an associated risk just by disturbing the original engine assembly.I've seen more engine failures due to bad NA work than I've seen by WON product failure, an easy task as we've NEVER had a WON product failure.

3) Carrying out NA modifications is a complex job and the more complex the work the greater the risk of problems that can lead to down time. We also carry out engine re-build work (although we try to avoid NA tuning work now) and I can assure you that engine work can often over run by weeks due to unexpected issues, leading to exceptionally long off road time.

4) If a modified engine component failed it would need replacement and quite often would have lead to other engine components failing.

5) When the modified engine parts wear out (which they will do at a much quicker rate), they will need replacing.

The following are positive factors associated with WON nitrous systems that are often overlooked;

1) Nitrous can enhance vehicle performance without exceeding the original rpm limit, it is even possible to do so using a lower rpm limit.

2) Nitrous enhances torque and power across the entire rpm range, so there is no need to sacrifice low end torque for high end power.

3) It is possible to achieve performance enhancement using nitrous, without increasing the risk of component failure and without increasing wear.

4) Fitting a nitrous system will not adversely affect the normal running of the engine, the drivability of the car or the fuel economy.

5) Your well assembled and proven reliable engine does not need to be pulled apart to fit a nitrous system. This removes the risk that the work will take longer than expected and the possibility that the work will be done incorrectly. WON nitrous systems are very simple to fit DIY and if fitted professionally, the work can be carried out within a predictable time scale.

6) WON components NEVER fail as a consequence of poor workmanship or component quality issues and even if they did, they are covered by a lifetime guarantee. Even if a component failed due to misuse or abuse, they can be repaired for a modest cost.

7) WON components will NEVER wear out, so you'll never need to spend another penny once you have the nitrous system of your choice.

Further factors;

1) If you buy NA tuning parts for your engine and your car is involved in an accident and then declared a write off, you can't recover your parts but if you were quick enough, you could have removed the nitrous system to be used on your next car.

2) If you buy NA tuning parts and then decide to replace your car, even if you buy the same model, it's a pain in the ass to remove them, fit standard ones, remove the standard parts and refit the tuned parts to the new engine, whereas it's a doddle to transplant the nitrous system.

3) If you buy NA tuning parts and then decide to buy a completely different car, your tuning parts would be useless to you, even if you went to the trouble of removing them, however a WON nitrous system can be transplanted from a MOPED to a TRUCK if required and at worst would only need relatively minor upgrades to do so.

4) If you spend say £1,000 to increase the power of your engine by say 25 hp using NA components, it is likely to cost you £1-2,000+ to achieve a further 25 hp, because the costs of conventional tuning increase exponentially as the power is ramped up. However, once you have bought a nitrous system, you are not limited in the same way from the outset and for relatively modest additional expenditure, it's possible to increase the power by HUGE amounts.

For example our basic nitrous system costs under £500 and this is ALL you need to achieve more power than most people can handle, but we would limit you to an initial power increase of just 25 hp. For just a further £20 that power can be increased to 50 hp and for a further £20 that can be raised to 75 hp. Now as I stated, most people would not be able to handle such an increase in the way this system would deliver the power, so for as little as a further £229 you could add a progressive control unit that would allow you to use even the 75 hp increase in a manageable way.

At this point you may need to improve the following components to continue your drive for more power;

i) Fuel system - Estimate £200
ii) Clutch - Estimate £400
iii) Ignition system - Estimate £300
iv) Pistons - Estimate £500-£1000
v) Head gaskets - Estimate £120

With all the above mods it is quite likely that you could achieve a power figure in excess of 300 hp and yet the price is still less than the £2,500 quoted for a mere 195 hp using NA components. Plus many of these additional mods required to generate and handle nitrous power (like the fuel system and clutch), would also be needed for the same power increases using NA methods anyway.

Now that's plenty to chew on for now but I'm sure I've missed off a number of associated factors, so I'll come back with those as and when they come to me. In the meantime if you'd like to read more on the subject, there are chapters in my book that are dedicated to comparing nitrous enhancement with NA, turbo and blower enhancements, in greater detail. I invite any forum member to dispute any of my statements but be warned, I can support all my claims with detailed technical evidence, should I need to do so and have only scratched the surface in this post, to try and keep it shorter than it would otherwise have been.

Regards, Trevor Langfield.

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 08 July 2011 - 08:55 PM
Reason for edit: To make it easier to read.


#2 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 10:52 PM

I'm not happy with the way my post has been compacted into a difficult to read mass of text, so if you would like to see it in a more readable format please take a look here;

http://www.technical-forum.com/nitrous-adv...9983.html#39983

Regards

Trevor Langfield

Well I don't know who did that for me but thank you as the way you have edited it is how I intended it but for some reason the forum compacted it and I couldn't seem to rectify it myself.

Regards

Trev

#3 User is offline   RED IMPACT 

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 11:28 PM

Nice write up dude...there is such negative press surrounding nitrous its untrue. I bet even after all the above points people still question the stability on a stable engine but the people that have it will swear by it! Madness!

I think the way Hollywood portrays the usage has a massive impact on peoples perception.

Keep up the good work i say! cool.gif

#4 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 12:37 AM

QUOTE (RED IMPACT @ Apr 14 2008, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nice write up dude...
Many thanks for such a positive response, it's really appreciated.

there is such negative press surrounding nitrous its untrue.
You can say that again and I know it better than most, as I've spent the last 30 years trying to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, that it is NOT NITROUS that is at fault when something goes wrong with a vehicle using a nitrous system, because the real cause is one or more of the following;
1) Badly designed nitrous kit - which is the fault of the company that sold the kit - NOT NITROUS ITSELF
2) Badly made nitrous kit - which is the fault of the company that sold the kit - NOT NITROUS ITSELF
3) Incorrectly fitted nitrous kit - which is the fault of the company that sold the kit for not providing adequate guidance or the guy who fitted it for not following the guidance if it was correct in the first place - NOT NITROUS ITSELF
4) Incorrectly used nitrous kit - which is the fault of the company that sold the kit for not providing adequate guidance or the guy who used it for not following the guidance if it was correct in the first place - NOT NITROUS ITSELF
5) Incorrectly modified engine parameters - which is the fault of the company that sold kit for not providing adequate guidance or the guy who fitted it for not following the guidance if it was correct in the first place - NOT NITROUS ITSELF
6) Inadequately uprated engine/vehicle components to cope with the need for power that some people can't resist - which is the fault of the company who sold it for not providing adequate guidance or the guy who used it for not following the guidance if it was correct in the first place - NOT NITROUS ITSELF
Without question the MAIN cause of nitrous associated engine failures is the responsibility of the companies selling the products. Now if my products were associated with engine failures I'd be EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to make such a comment BUT it's because they are NOT associated with engine failures, that I can confidently make such a statement.

In 30 years of involvement with nitrous my products have never been responsible for an engine failure and if that were not the case I certainly would not have survived in this business for 30 years.
There have been one or two instances when my system has been falsely blamed for a failure (through lack of appropriate knowledge), but once I examined the facts of the case I was able to PROVED CONCLUSIVELY that it was not the case. Obviously there are odd instances when an engine component has failed unexpectedly, just as they do without the addition of nitrous but that's a fact of life. You can take a batch of almost any component and some would be graded as top class, while others would be thrown in the bin but sadly those that are borderline, end up in someones engine and fail when you least expect it.

I bet even after all the above points people still question the stability on a stable engine
I wouldn't doubt it and the most annoying thing about that is, those people will be the ones with LEAST KNOWLEDGE and NO EXPERIENCE!!!
Anyone like Chris who has INDEPENDENT EXPERIENCE will be ignored - now how insane is that????


but the people that have it will swear by it! Madness!
It makes you wonder why people who have NO EXPERIENCE OR KNOWLEDGE of it "think" they know better than those who do??
As you say, it's MADNESS!!!


I think the way Hollywood portrays the usage has a massive impact on peoples perception.
It has made more people aware of nitrous and what it can do but it has DISTORTED and spread a great deal of MISINFORMATION about it and that's very unfortunate.


Keep up the good work i say! cool.gif
At 55 years old I'm getting to the point where I'm sick of banging my head against the wall and getting ready to retire but till then I'll do what I can and thanks again for such a positive post. My life would have been so much easier if there had been more people willing to read what I have to say with an open mind, rather than assume it's all sales hype.
I don't expect people to blindly accept what I have to say but as most of it is common sense and just needs thinking about, they should be able to appreciate this stuff for themselves, as you obviously have.

Regards

Trev


This post has been edited by Noswizard: 14 April 2008 - 10:48 AM


#5 User is offline   mikecat 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:21 AM

yeah il second that. Really opens up your eyes to Nitrous. Before reading these posts i would have never considered it an option in tuning my car!

keep up the good work matey

#6 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:11 AM

Blimey trev,

when i invited you to look at that thread i had no idea you would come up with such a response....

as ever, your posts are always a very interesting read.... cool.gif

Thanks again for sharing your expertise on our forum..

tongue.gif tongue.gif
Wizards Of Nos 60hp progressive delivery.... yeah baby yeah :-o
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#7 User is offline   Dogsbody 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:44 AM

Works well on two stroke motor bikes as well rolleyes.gif

I remember watching in awe as a standard looking, Kawasaki KH250 blew away a Harris Magnum with a 1100 Suzuki engine in on the strip.
The Magnum rider couldn't believe it either laugh.gif

The guy was TRIPLING the bhp of the KH250 but in one go!
Bought in at full throttle, in third gear or above ohmy.gif

The wheelie had to be seen to be believed biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Dogsbody: 14 April 2008 - 11:45 AM

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#8 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:44 AM

Thanks for the positive responses guys.

Just as with everything I do in my life, I'm obsessed with doing it to the best of my ability and that's why the post was so thorough but having said that, I have missed off a couple of important aspect, as well as a cost comparison conclusion, so I'll be back with those ASAP.

Thanks again for the appreciation for my efforts.

Regards

Trev

#9 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:52 AM

It certainly does work well on 2 strokes and we have a couple of customers with world records as a consequence but one of the best results we ever had, was on a Vespa 200 which made 4 bhp as standard and we cranked that up to 28 bhp, that's an increase by a factor of 7 fold!!!!
This was back in the days before I invented progressive control, so it was unridable but it was SERIOUSLY IMPRESSIVE to watch on the dyno.

I was also commissioned by Marconi Industries to increase the power of the 2 stroke engines that they use for unmanned spy planes but that's one of the TOP SECRET episodes of my carrier. wink.gif

Regards

Trev

This post has been edited by Noswizard: 14 April 2008 - 06:37 PM


#10 User is offline   Leighton 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 03:55 PM

This does seem very good! and a great alternative to cnc heads. I guess the next questions to ask is what sort of price are we looking at to achieve the magical 200bhb figure including the progressive controler and heat wrap, along with a 11lb bottle. All bought from yourselves of course. Plus fitting and setup charges.

Also how long does this kind of job take? hours or days?

Thanks for all the info so far! has been a very interesting read!

#11 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:04 PM

QUOTE (Leighton @ Apr 14 2008, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This does seem very good! and a great alternative to cnc heads. I guess the next questions to ask is what sort of price are we looking at to achieve the magical 200bhb figure including the progressive controler and heat wrap, along with a 11lb bottle. All bought from yourselves of course. Plus fitting and setup charges.

Also how long does this kind of job take? hours or days?

Thanks for all the info so far! has been a very interesting read!


Trevor may give more detailed quotes re: price etc...

to hit 'the magic 200' as you put it smile.gif you are definatly looking at having the bottle heater so that consistant optimum pressure is reached...(950psi) usage in the summer months without heater is a little easier but after a few squirts you will loose pressure ... on my system the max kicks in to bring it back up again... smile.gif without the max you would have a switch fitted instead......

I'm sure a 'deal' can be struck on a comprehensive package... wink.gif


This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 14 April 2008 - 08:02 PM

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#12 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Leighton @ Apr 14 2008, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This does seem very good! and a great alternative to cnc heads. I guess the next questions to ask is what sort of price are we looking at to achieve the magical 200bhb figure including the progressive controler and heat wrap, along with a 11lb bottle.
Not sure why you want the heat wrap (although it is handy to minimise heat transfer to the nitrous components under the bonnet, despite fe people bothering) but as regards making 200 hp, you may not actually require that amount from our system (other than for a number), because the torque our systems deliver is unlike anything you'll ever experience in any other way and as it's torque that pushes your car forward (and you back in your seat), that's more important than peak hp.
Minimum price for a system that will deliver the goods is approx. £780 plus carriage & VAT.
That's all you NEED to achieve good results but we offer a range of optional extras that you can choose from to suit yourself.

All bought from yourselves of course. Plus fitting and setup charges.
If you can replace an air filter and/or fit neon lights, you can fit our nitrous system yourself and there is no great difficulty to testing and tweaking the setup.
However if you want us to do it all for you, then £400 (+VAT) will cover the system mentioned above.
If you don't feel confident enough to fit the system yourself, just check out our online DIY fitting instructions;
http://www.noswizard...x/UK_Manual.pdf
http://www.noswizard...imax_Manual.pdf
If after that you still don't feel confident to do it ALL yourself, you can do the work that's easy to do, like securing the bottle in the boot, etc.) and then bring it to us to check over and finish off for you at a reduce cost.

Also how long does this kind of job take? hours or days?
We normally take 2 days to do a standard system, including setting up the system to the customers requirements. However, only 2 aspect of fitting a nitrous system disables your car (and even then it's only for a few minutes) and those are fitting the injector and connecting to your fuel supply, so if you could only spare an hour or two a night, you could do parts of the job as and when you had the time and still have your car for everyday use.
Now tell me how conventional tuning can come close to being that convenient????

Thanks for all the info so far! has been a very interesting read!
My pleasure and I'm pleased to hear you've found it worth reading.

Since this forum has been kind enough to allow me to introduce you to my products, I'd be willing to offer a group buy discount (of 15%), to the first 3 people who arrange to buy together within the next 4 weeks and to be fair to Chris for inviting me in the first place, if that offer is taken up, I'll have to find something we can do for you in appreciation as well. wink.gif

Regards

Trev


#13 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 07:18 PM

When fitting conventional tuning mods, it can have an adverse affect on a vehicles emissions for MOT purposes, however with nitrous, you just leave the switch off and the engine runs just as it was designed to do.

ALL other forms of tuning are costed relative to the cost and complexity of the original engine.For example a porting job for a 200cc motorcycle might cost £75 but a porting job for a Ferrari would cost MANY £1,000. However with nitrous systems it would cost approx £400 for the 200cc job and just £800 for the Ferrari, to achieve even better results than the porting on both engines would achieve.
Now that sounds expensive for the 200cc engine but when you consider that it will last FOR LIFE and could be transplanted to every vehicle you ever own, it starts to look VERY CHEAP.

Hears an example from a customer of the huge expense that some conventional tuning can cost and I'm sure there are far worse examples to be found.
http://www.racingpow...com/bmw_m70.htm

Regards

Trev


This post has been edited by Noswizard: 14 April 2008 - 08:15 PM


#14 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:06 PM

Thanks Trevor...

with regards to Leighton's comment about the 'heat wrap'... he meant the Bottle Warmer... laugh.gif think you thought he was meaning some kind of insulation...

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 14 April 2008 - 08:07 PM

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#15 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:17 PM

laugh.gif Thanks for clarifying that for me Chris and in that case add approx. £150 to my previous prices.

Regards

Trev

#16 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:21 PM

i'm a little confused how anyone can run the system well without it... (bottle heater)

everytime iv'e gone to my car the bottle has been wayyy below optimum pressure... like... 600ish psi...

and of course when your using the system it drops too... must be a nightmare keeping up the pressure (and performance) without one surely..?? ja_stupid.gif

i realise it has been pretty cold tho....

Chris

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 14 April 2008 - 08:22 PM

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#17 User is offline   Leighton 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:06 PM

lol sorry i did mean the bottle warmer biggrin.gif one question i have to ask though is where do you get the bottles refilled? im from south wales, are there many places available to refill the system? also how much does it roughly cost to fill up a 11lb bottle?

#18 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:33 PM

Wizards have a database of agents who sell their kits and stock Nitrous.... so this may be the first route to take....

other route is... there is an online service that arranges collection and delivery...

other option that i'll be looking into over the summer is having my own BIG bottle ohmy.gif so i can do my own refilling.. woot2.gif

would be interesting to see how quick i can squirt my way through 80lbs of the stuff... roflmao.gif

for a rough idea of local filling.... your talking £4 per lb... roughly £40-45 (11lb bottle) .... not all places can pump it in for a bigger 'fill' like Wizards can.....a 'gravity' fill may only reach 9-10lb

Chris

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 14 April 2008 - 09:50 PM

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#19 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 10:27 PM

In the good old days nitrous was only used in good weather conditions and a heater was not required.

Alternatives to an electric heater are;
1) Pre heat the bottle in doors before fitting it in the car.
2) Use different size jets to suit different temperature conditions and although you will experience a small drop in pressure whilst the system is activated it should not be a major issue.
3) Add a fuel pressure regulator
4) Pre-use nitrogen boosting

All the above options are cheaper than a bottle heater but not as convenient/user friendly.

The amount of pressure drop is dependent on;
1) Jet size - the bigger the shot the worse the drop
2) Duration of each shot - the longer the shot the worse the drop
3) Duration between repeat use - the quicker the system is repeat used, the worse the drop
4) Ambient temperature - the lower the temperature the worse the drop
5) Bottle size - the smaller the bottle the worse the drop

Regards

Trev

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 05:13 PM

i like the detail but seems to be a little 'too good to be true'.......

points picked at random.....

correct me if im wrong but nos (liquid oxygen that has been stabilised for safety (with nitrogen?)) is a way of getting more air into the cylinder....... getting a bigger bang
very simplistically like a turbo or supercharger.......or na tuning; just forcing more 'air' in
adding anything extra in this way WILL add strain to the engine components........ a big turbo will kill an engine & so will a big shot of nos.....

not being able to remove na parts from a write off car.... not true; most can be bought back at a silly low price & expensive engines swapped to a new car...

etc etc.... i see your points & do agree to the majority but the language has been a little 'chosen' in favour of nos.....

nos does sound very good and appealing in its easy fit 'ask an expert' & diy fit the supplied kit (but so is talking to 'garrett' & fitting a slightly bigger turbo...) & id be tempted to have a very small shot on at all times (if nos was cheap enough) to make my engine better all the time.... but there are downsides which i didnt really see above

like a rudy great heavy bottle for one (same for lpg & same again for the heating issue too) which any car nut is going to go nuts over fitting..... suspension & handling is just as important as power......
the fact it will kill an engine just the same as any other tuning over a long time simply because said engine was not designed for it.... just like running veg oil in a diesel; for its foreseeable life span the damage isnt great but it is happening & the engine will degrade exponentially after a time.....

i like the fact its simple & easy but so is a air temp chip which over fuels the car.... & eventually kills the cat......nothing is perfect, not even nos if the engine wasnt designed for it & there not designed for nos

id def shout about the 'diy fit' & the 'prices' relative to other forms of tuning but not too much about the rest.....nos isnt perfect. arguably it helps optimise an engine if used sparingly.....but if your using it sparingly (without adding strain) it could be argued that a good cold air feed optimises an na car just as well......

i def agree about the head tuning info.....3 angle valve seats are worth there weight in gold!!!! (so to speak!) iv found someone a lot cheaper than those prices tho!!!! but then he is retired & only does it for fun now so i must be getting a good deal!

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