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Front Wheels Hitting The Inner Arches When Cornering

#1 User is offline   TurboJ 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:40 PM

I've been driving my '98 Puma 1.7 since New Year, and on more spirited drives I have noticed the front tyres are hitting the inner wheel arches when cornering hard. It seems the contact is taking place between the tyre and the 'cloth' sound deadener material inside the wheel housing.

This happens on both sides' front wheels when the spring on that side is compressed enough (when cornering to the opposite direction obviously). It's worse when cornering to the right, but that could simply be due to driver weight (car is LHD).
I went to my first track day with the Puma last weekend, and this problem was persistent and always occurring on the fastest right-hand corners, specifically when there is a bump or other uneven bit in the middle of the corner, or when turn-in is sudden.

The suspension is completely standard and the wheels are standard Puma OEM wheels. There are no leaks in the dampers and the fronts have been changed some time (Puma-specific Boge dampers). The springs are, however, original.
Tyres are 195/55 instead of the usual 195/50, but I don't see how that could be such a big issue given the difference is so small. And these are indeed normal street tyres, so it's not a 'too much grip' issue either.

Now, those cloth sound damping mats inside the wheel wells, were sagging a bit. So I trimmed the sagging bits off and that did help the problem a bit. But it's still hitting the arches.

Also, the front bump stops are a little broken (but not perished) while the suspension otherwise looks quite OK. But I don't think a Puma should be hitting the bump stops when just cornering, so other problems must be present, right?
The steering angles have been set properly not long ago, and the car's handling seems to reflect this so I don't think the angles are newly messed up. And there's a fresh MOT too, so the springs/dampers shouldn't be completely out..

Any help? This spoils the trackday fun for me, and I don't want to go out shopping for new springs if that's not the problem to begin with...

This post has been edited by TurboJ: 16 May 2014 - 12:47 PM


#2 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:02 PM

Hi
Any particular reason for not using the right profile tyres?
The FRP does this as standard when cornered *really* hard.
I would check that you are not getting tyre slicing from any seams.
As to whether it should do it I think maybe not a lot as there are a few standards Pumas being tracked and I can't say I have seen posts on it.
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#3 User is offline   TurboJ 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:03 PM

View Posthappy-kat, on 16 May 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Hi
Any particular reason for not using the right profile tyres?
The FRP does this as standard when cornered *really* hard.
I would check that you are not getting tyre slicing from any seams.
As to whether it should do it I think maybe not a lot as there are a few standards Pumas being tracked and I can't say I have seen posts on it.


The car had brand new premium tyres on it when I bought it; I personally would not buy a profile I'm not sure is going to work.

Luckily the tyres haven't sustained any damage (yet at least) but I'm curious about this problem.. Maybe it's just the combination of old springs that have sagged slightly due to time / wear, wrong tyre profile and bump stops not at 100%.
It's kind of frustrating because I can't seem to pin point the reason for this (rubbing) happening.

Also, it would seem strange indeed if just profile 55 instead of 50 would cause this much trouble - usually you can use quite a bit larger than standard wheels on 90% of cars even if you have a lowered suspension...

This post has been edited by TurboJ: 16 May 2014 - 03:06 PM


#4 User is offline   Ian G 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:08 PM

Most of the cars built just to track don't have the arch liners installed.

I'd definitely be blaming the tyres to some degree. That's 5% of 195 so probably nearly 20mm across the entire diameter of the tyre.

Springs can't be helping either, they do deteriorate with age.

How come its LHD but has an MOT? Where are you?

#5 User is offline   TurboJ 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:27 PM

View PostIan G, on 16 May 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

Most of the cars built just to track don't have the arch liners installed.

I'd definitely be blaming the tyres to some degree. That's 5% of 195 so probably nearly 20mm across the entire diameter of the tyre.

Springs can't be helping either, they do deteriorate with age.

How come its LHD but has an MOT? Where are you?


I guess I'll have to try with different tyres. I do have some 50's also, ready to go under my 'real' project car, but well, at least I could try them...

I'm in Finland and I just used the acronym MOT for clarity - I guess each country has a different name for it Posted Image

As far as I can tell, the tyres aren't hitting the sharp edges on the longitudinal front body members, but just the arch liners. So I guess the first thing to try is without the liners.

BTW, can someone tell me what the gap should be on a standard Puma, between the front arch and the front wheel when the car's sitting on a level ground? Or better yet, the distance from the wheel center to the arch.That could give some indication
as to how much the springs have given in over the years.

This post has been edited by TurboJ: 16 May 2014 - 03:27 PM


#6 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:25 PM

The seams under the arch are not all the same, hopefully yours are not sharp or protruding too low, some are very sharp and cut fingers.
How many miles (km) has your Puma done?
I can't help with the measurement request but hopefully someone can with a standard Puma.
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#7 User is offline   YOG 

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:59 PM

Ford TIS
Nominal Kerb Height (wheel centre to arch, measured at wheel centre).
Front 375 mm
Rear 378 mm
Rick

The Haynes Fiesta Manual (3397) can answer a lot of your questions.
Posted Image

#8 User is offline   TurboJ 

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:39 PM

Thank you very much for the measurements!

I thought this problem couldn't be only because of the tyre size (which does not help of course)
I measured the front ride height and the front is lower than it should by 20-30 mm.

I believe the springs are original and there are 120k miles on them. The rust on them also affects the spring rate of course...
I know of course that springs deteriorate, but I haven't had a similar problem on any other car. The clearance in the wheel well seems to be quite small on the Puma, even with standard wheels.

Oh, and the seams are bad enough that they cut through the tyre surface..

Now then, I will of course fit some new springs, but I wouldn't want to lower the car - unless I'm absolutely certain I will improve the car by doing so. In my experience, lowering springs tend to hurt more than help, especially when the stock setup on the Puma is so good.

I'm wondering if any of you can tell me how the aftermarket standard springs work - the ones you see on eBay? Of course I haven't asked a quote for new OEM springs yet either.
I would like springs that are as close as possible to OEM so any suggestions are welcome.

This post has been edited by TurboJ: 26 June 2014 - 03:40 PM


#9 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:06 PM

Eibach did do a after market spring for Ford in 1998 for the Puma that lowered it I think it was 35mm that were popular.
Usually it is running with the wrong offset wheels that cause the seams to show sharp edges and tyre slice.
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#10 User is offline   TurboJ 

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 03:27 PM

View Posthappy-kat, on 26 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Eibach did do a after market spring for Ford in 1998 for the Puma that lowered it I think it was 35mm that were popular.
Usually it is running with the wrong offset wheels that cause the seams to show sharp edges and tyre slice.



Yeah, well, the car has standard Puma wheels, the ones it came out of the factory with.
I guess my problem has to be the combination of a slightly higher tyre profile and the deteriorated springs. The -30 mm ride height up front that I have now is quite low for standard spring rates, and my springs are rusty too!

I'm now looking at an Eibach Pro Kit spring set, which is supposed to lower the car by 30 mm. That sounds tempting since I can get this set for a lower price than new OEM springs.
The thing I'm wondering though if anyone has experience on these - I hope they aren't too stiff so they'd ruin the chassis balance.

This post has been edited by TurboJ: 27 June 2014 - 03:29 PM


#11 User is offline   TurboJ 

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:41 AM

I have finally done the suspension overhaul on our Puma; in the end I ordered a set of Kyb springs (supposed to be like the OE springs) and Sachs Advantage shock absorbers.
I feel this was the smart option for me; Eibach would have been stiffer which is not so good for the local rough roads, and OE Ford parts were just too expensive...
Everything is now overhauled - all the bushes, ball joints, track rods, upper mounts front and back, drop links - everything is new.
Even though the final (precise) toe adjustment is not yet done, I can tell the car is very, very different to drive right now.

The Kyb springs have settled to exactly the right ride height according to Ford factory specification.
It's interesting how much the car improved even though none of the old parts were in particularly bad condition. Some even looked pretty new.
Now the car has a more supple initial ride but still does not roll as much in the corners.
Before, the front end was hitting the bump stops quite easily and it was rolling quite a lot - now the car just glides over road imperfections and
feels much more planted, yet still more comfortable at the same time.

I will not be able to take the car to a track day until next summer, but so far there seem to be absolutely no symptoms of front tyres hitting the inner arches - the roll resistance is much improved as it is.

So the bottom line is - even though your suspension may look like it's OK, if it has been several years since your last full overhaul, chanches are you will feel a big difference one you renew it all.

This post has been edited by TurboJ: 31 October 2014 - 10:47 AM


#12 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 01:08 PM

Yes bushes really do wear and perhaps should be changed before they actually look like they need to. Top mounts compress as well.
Glad it feels great for the work you have done.
searching is fruitful | I'm a sponge not a mechanic | please do try that if stuck with a Puma problem whilst waiting for a reply | For the Puma fan this read 'The Inside Story Book' is very nice to own sometimes still seen for sale

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