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Drum Brakes 180Mm / 200Mm Interchangeable?

#1 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 10:18 PM

Hi Pumafolks,

Recently bought a '98 Puma 1.7 for fast road and occasional track day use.

I already found a nice pair of 258mm callipers to replace the original 238mm ones.
EBC discs and yelllowstuff pads will be fitted.

Next thing I want to adress is getting rid of the 180mm drum brakes and install the 200mm drums found on the later Pumas.
As only for the 200mm ones pumaspeed offer the heavy duty brakeshoes.
But I can't find any info on this mod anywhere. Are the drums and backplates interchangeable and is this a simple "bolt-on" job ?

And what's this thing about the master brake cylinder?
I found contradictional info on which makes of Puma have the stronger master cylinder.... One states it's on the earlier models, the other states it'son the later models....
Who knows for sure?
And is replacing the master cylinder an easy job?

And before all of you spoiled modders start pushing me towards the mondeo/cossie/ST150 brakes and a rear disc conversion......where I live (Belgium) it's a MOT fail and legal issue, as are braided hoses, grooved or perforated discs (when not standard) etcetera.....

Thanks for your help in advance!!

This post has been edited by DriftKicker: 02 April 2015 - 10:21 PM


#2 User is offline   martytay 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:14 AM

Why 258mm? 300mm is a VERY cheap upgrade.

I doubt you would notice any difference by the extra 20mm on rear drums, most of the braking is done by the fronts anyway ;)




#3 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 07:24 AM

300mm disc upgrade will fill up the standard 15"wheels niceley, and that difference will be noticed every year with the MoT. It's strictly forbidden here to tinker with the brakesystem.
They wanna keep cars unsafe here I guess....Posted Image

The drum brake conversion from 180mm to 200mm : my only motivation is that for the 200mm there are brakeshoes that can withstand track use. Wouldn't they make a difference?
Rear drum brakes are all about keeping balance under heavy braking. With the EBC discs and yellowstuff pads in front, I'm worried that the rear drums will fade after a few laps and leave all the braking to the front. Normally it's biased 75% front, 25% back I thought....

But OK, I want to give it a try and will keep you guys updated, but before I invest in a pair of complete 200mm drums, I want to be sure that they will bolt on and there are no probs with abs rings and stuff....
If anyone knows, please stand up and speak Posted Image




#4 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:05 AM

There is brake information in the wiki, top of screen in desktop mode, which may help you.
searching is fruitful | I'm a sponge not a mechanic | please do try that if stuck with a Puma problem whilst waiting for a reply | For the Puma fan this read 'The Inside Story Book' is very nice to own sometimes still seen for sale

#5 User is offline   martytay 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:42 AM

View PostDriftKicker, on 03 April 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

300mm disc upgrade will fill up the standard 15"wheels niceley, and that difference will be noticed every year with the MoT. It's strictly forbidden here to tinker with the brakesystem.



Same here in France, but we still do it and the cars pass :roflmao:/>

The only original part on my Sierra is the shell :blush:/>

Do you really think the MOT will notice the brakes? I doubt they measure each disc on each car they test :woot2:/>

If its strictly forbidden then even a 258 upgrade isn't allowed? so if you are willing to do that you may as well do the 300mm upgrade :cool:/>

Where in Belgium are you?




#6 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 12:51 PM

@Martytay : Bonjour! I live close to the racetrack in Zolder Posted Image
And yes, an 238=>258 upgrade is strictly against the rules, but I can prove by means of taking an official Ford commercial catalogue to the MOT that pumas have 258 discs. Posted Image


@Happy Kat : I've been searching in lots of forums and also in this wiki, but nowhere any info on swapping 180mm to 200mm rear drums.
And also no definitive proof on which type has the biggest master cylinder....

#7 User is offline   martytay 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:35 PM

View PostDriftKicker, on 03 April 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

@Martytay : Bonjour! I live close to the racetrack in Zolder Posted Image
.
And also no definitive proof on which type has the biggest master cylinder....






Have a look here


http://www.pumapeopl...ndpost&p=889228






I can do one better :ph34r:/>/> I live close to the racetrack in Mangy-Cours :bebe:/>/>






This post has been edited by martytay: 03 April 2015 - 02:36 PM


#8 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 04:23 PM

Okay, now it really gets confusing..... this calls out for a real smartguy ! Posted Image :

In Puma's there are 2 types of rear drum brakes, 180mm (pre 02/2000) and 203mm ( 03/2000 and later);
- Besides diameter they also differ in width : the old 180 being 27mm wider than the 203, but the slimmer 203 has a 6mm wider lining Posted Image
- On all makes the brake cables are identical
- The 180 can have 3 different lengths of hose (390mm,335mm,395mm) depending on the make
- The 203 just has one length hose, 395mm, which it shares with the post-11/1998 180's
- The pistons of the rear wheel brake cylinders are 2mm wider in diameter on a 203 compared to a 180

*** 1) Who can explain why 203's are less wide than 180, but still have a wider lining ? What changed there ? ***
*** 2) And what technical changes made that for a 180 they used 3 different lengths of brakehose overtime ? ***
*** 3) Anyone understands if a 203 mm drum can be mounted on a pumas that came with a 180 mm drum ?? ***


And now for the Master Brake Cylinder :
I still don't know if the later or earlier cars have the most forcefull master brake cylinder, because Bosch only offers two types (ABS/non-ABS) for the pre-02/2000 models.... Posted Image
Those pre-02/2000 pistons are 23,80 mm in outer diameter....

*** 4) Who knows what the outer piston diameter of the master brake cylinder is in a later puma ?? ***




SOURCE : As researched in the Bosch Catalogue ;

DRUMS

Pre 02/2000
Part# 0986477099
Inner diameter = 180 mm
Total width = 76 mm


Post 02/2000

Part# 0986477226
Inner diameter = 203 mm
Total width = 49 mm



REAR BRAKE CABLE

All makes
Part# 1987477301
Length Cable01 = 1.627
Length Cable02 = 1.575



REAR BRAKE HOSE

Pre 03/1998
Part#
1987476603
Lenght : 390 mm


04/1998 until 11/1998
Part#
1987476600
Length : 335 mm

Post 11/1998
Part#
1987481153
Length : 395 mm


REAR BRAKE SHOES

Pre 02/2000
Part#
0986487553
Inner diameter = 180 mm
Lining width = 32 mm



Post 02/2000
Part#
0986487599
Inner diameter = 203 mm
Lining width = 38 mm

REAR WHEEL BRAKE CYLINDERS

Pre 02/2000
Part# F026002502
Piston diameter 17,50 mm


Post 02/2000
Part# 0986475905
Piston diameter 19,05 mm

MASTER BRAKE CYLINDER


Pre 02/2000 NO ABS
Part#
0986480697
Piston diameter 23,80 mm
Thread M10

Pre 02/2000 ABS
Part#
0986480698
Piston diameter 23,80 mm
Thread M12



Post 02/2000
Bosch has no product in it's range for these cars ?????
So it remain s a mistery for now......


#9 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 04:31 PM

@martytay.... thanks for the link. I think that'll be the reason Bosch only have the early master cylinder : they also fit it to later models as a replacement.

I think it's now fair to say that the EARLY (pre 02/2000) pumas have the higher pressure master-cylinder.
But it's the later models that have the better callipers and drums ....

Anyone have any experience with "frankenstein-ing" 203mm drums onto an early puma ??

#10 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 04:40 PM

Given that I know of one extremely powerful Puma still running the rear drums and it is a very early Puma pulling nearly 300bhp I don't get the need. This Puma is used for sprinting.
I wonder if people like Ian who regularly tracked their Puma bothered to change the rears. Popular to upgrade the fronts but the rears.
Off later to get some links to show when on PC.
searching is fruitful | I'm a sponge not a mechanic | please do try that if stuck with a Puma problem whilst waiting for a reply | For the Puma fan this read 'The Inside Story Book' is very nice to own sometimes still seen for sale

#11 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 06:54 PM

Thanks Happy-Kat, I look forward to the links of the 300bhp sprint puma.

My thought was that I'll have te renew the drums anyway. 203mm brake shoes are available in heavy duty at an affordable price.
So why not buy a new pair of 203's in stead of 180's if they can bolt straight on?

But the 27mm difference in width suggests perhaps that it all might be more complicated than that....Posted Image

#12 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 07:32 PM

It's late 200 bhp number.
searching is fruitful | I'm a sponge not a mechanic | please do try that if stuck with a Puma problem whilst waiting for a reply | For the Puma fan this read 'The Inside Story Book' is very nice to own sometimes still seen for sale

#13 User is offline   happy-kat 

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:43 PM

I can't find what I wanted to but Big Boy Al's track Puma (since sold) was a cracking project and Al is not a light right foot driver on track.
http://www.pumapeopl...%20%20puma&st=0
This track Puma is drums
http://www.pumapeopl...=1
Another read, and I'll done just over 55k on the FRP and a good 16 track days and still on the original rear disk and pads no wear on them yet.
http://www.pumapeopl...=1
And from what I could make out the Puma Cup UK is running drums still on the rear looking at the regulations.

Can't help at all on the will it fit and difference between the Puma model year different brake setups.
searching is fruitful | I'm a sponge not a mechanic | please do try that if stuck with a Puma problem whilst waiting for a reply | For the Puma fan this read 'The Inside Story Book' is very nice to own sometimes still seen for sale

#14 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 03:29 PM

talked to a racing engineer yesterday, here's a summary :

The performance of a drumbrake does not hold a lineair relationship to the diameter and lining width,
Yes, larger sized drums create more friction,
more friction equals more absorption of kinetic energy,
but more friction also equals generating more heat.

Drums are very poor in loosing build up heat,
so heat fading can start occurring awfully quick inside a drum.
The drum only absorbs kinetic energy for as long as it can absorb heat.

The thinner the cast of the drum, the sooner it will become saturated with heat and brake fading sets in.
The thicker, thus heavier, the cast of the drum, the more rotational mass your car has.

So it's the same story as disc brakes here : better performance is found by means of better cooling power, creating more rotational mass.

Brake performance on trackdays :
for disks its all about cooling capacity
for drums its all about heat absorbing capacity

Drums at the rear on trackdays will have little to do, for when you brake, you'll be braking late thus full stopping power is used,
which means 80-90% of the weight of the car will be travelling to the front, giving the rear brakes very little inert weight to bring to a hold.

Brake bias is a result of the front and rear brakes working in harmony together : the rear brakes should only deliver brake torque after the front brakes already do so....and same story the amount of brake torque. The timegap between b/f and the relative amount of torque b/f, thats braking balance.

....

So the rear brakes do so little that high-performance "fade-resistant"- brakeshoes will not be noticeable other than in your wallet.
In fact, if the brakeshoes deliver more friction, the amount of heat increases, as a result to that the brakes will even fade sooner !

---there went my nr1 motivation for a disc conversion----

Disc brakes in the rear are mainly esthetical, unless it's needed to bring balance to the back when using ultra-fast response callipers with grippy pads/discs in the front.

---since I can't get anything through the Mot larger than 258m, non-grooved, non-perforated and OEM callipers that will not be a problem-----

To end the conclusion on which type of drum is better : it depends on it's capacity to absorb heat. It seems, but that's a guess, that if the older type drum (180mm) is wider by 27mm, it might have more mass and thus should absorb heat longer. The slightly smaller friction surface should also indicate a slower buildup of heat.

----okay, there went my plans on suffering a 180mm drum in favor of a 203mm---

Bought the guy another Posted Image

and went home feeling Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


Posted Image







#15 User is offline   martytay 

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 05:28 PM

As I said most of the braking is done by the fronts ;) You quoted 75%, that might be the case for RWD but its nearer 90+% for FWD.

I'll be fitting my 300mm's tomorrow :) I did the same conversion to my Sierra a few years back and it made a massive improvement.




#16 User is offline   DriftKicker 

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 11:51 PM

yes Marty.....should have listened to you at first Posted Image

Posted Image

And indeed, FWD s hould be biassed at least 75%F/25%R, but taken into account the dynamic weight shift to the front, it'll be 90% in practice....

So grippier shoes give you 0.004% more stopping power and 20% earlier fading....Posted Image





#17 User is offline   martytay 

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 11:45 AM

Just finished a 300mm conversion, I'd certainly recommend it!!!!!!!!!

Braking is awesome and they aren't even bedded in yet :)




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