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Wizard Of Nos Works His Magic On #453.. Nitrous Install

#41 User is offline   Big Boy Al 

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 02:28 PM

well i certainly know what frp 241 is getting treated to next year biggrin.gif
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FRP 241 RINGMEISTER -23 LAPS = 296.7 MILES COMPLETED, MORE TO COME NEXT YEAR

#42 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 03:37 PM

The advantage you ALL have, is that you are welcome to pop over and see the install before going ahead with anything...

I knew of one or two puma's that had a wizards kit installed, but none with this type of controller and bottle warmer etc... so i had to plunge in there a little blind and just rely on the experiences of many people on the Wizards forum... mellow.gif

----

just been out for another little session.... this time with the delivery times knocked down to 2 secs instead of 5 or 6....and a more advanced power curve setting... this setting was amazing in 3rd 4th and 5th... the car really feels like it's grown a new turbo.... the Roar through the Janspeed is awesome biggrin.gif

i think this is the setting i'll be using the most...

setting up every gear to the max and starting from 1st, feels great but it doesn't half take it's toll on the clutch and transmission etc... the Helix coped well tho... wink.gif this setting will no doubt be great for the occasional traffic light sprint or down at the pod i guess... smile.gif

The FRP grin is a whole different shape on Nitrous.. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Chris

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 13 April 2008 - 03:39 PM

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#43 Guest_Tiggr_*


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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:21 AM

Right.

I've been in this car.

I've experienced the power delivery

I've sat there grinning.

For those of you that think NOS is something for Hollywood, or remember the dodgy builds from the last few decades, I suggest you get along to one of the meets Chris is at and actually look at the work done by WON.

Now I'm not marketing this kit, I'm not saying its the way to go for performance work. I'm still heavily leaning on the forced induction variant of power tuning.

BUT.

If you are looking for a good, ( relatively ) simple way to increase the power and torque your engine puts out, that is controllable by YOU ( the Extreme power control unit is very tweakable ) and that can be turned off until you want to play, then I would suggest that you seriously look at this. Far more so than ported heads, and fancy cams / inlet manifolds and all the other stuff a lot of the adverts suggest you buy...

It has a down side, in that each burst costs money, but what doesnt.

Couple of questions I meant to ask Chris last night.

1) What fuel are you using?

2) What was the % increase in your insurance?

All in all, I was suitably impressed last night.

This post has been edited by Tiggr: 17 April 2008 - 08:21 AM


#44 Guest_Tiggr_*


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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:42 AM

Chris,

From last nights discussion, N2O has an oxygen weight of 36%, which compares well to the NA weight of 19% smile.gif That gives a pure projected power increase of approx 80% at 100% injection.

So taking that you were running at 50% IIRC last night, my back calculations of peak power being around 200 - 210 BHP would appear to be roughly inline with "fag packet calculations" wink.gif

( I'm sure Trev will either agree or pull that to pieces smile.gif )


#45 Guest_Tiggr_*


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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:54 AM

Next point from last night, maybe this is for Trev to answer.

The Extrememe unit is a clever box of tricks, enabling you to define injection for each gear, this done by the unit working out what gear you are in by the drop in rpm as you shift up. Very clever in fact.

Question is though, and this is more important for the drivers of a standard Puma fitted with this kit, can you completely disable the injection on first and possibly second? I know that you can adjust the injection timing, and I think Chris had it set to 3 seconds, but the Puma drive train has one weak spot, and thats the drive shafts. Given that as Trev stated on the other thread, that the power increase is instant ( unlike turbo or super charged ) then there is a real danger that if you are playing around with the unit that you will snap the shaft.

This post has been edited by Tiggr: 17 April 2008 - 08:55 AM


#46 User is offline   300bhpton 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:34 AM

Hi.



I’d just like to say WOW what an excellent setup and car. I’m a big fan of well designed and engineered setups and components and after some initial research all I can say is WON products exceed expectations and appear to be some superbly designed kit.



Congrats on a sweet ride and thanks for the write up. smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif



Current stable:

Camaro z/28 5.7 V8 - (SLP Loudmouth, FRA, STB, SFC)
Triumph TR7 V8 - (3.5 Rover V8, S1 heads, Fast Road cam, Lt's, Offy manifold, Weber 500, Luminition, Kenlowe, custom interior & exteroir)
Land Rover Discovery 200Tdi - (HD shocks & springs, 33" Simex Jungle Trekker II's, FMIC, tweaked injector pump and upped turbo boost)
Land Rover 88" Series 3 Pick-up 2.25 diesel - (currently in a field awaiting re-build)
Peugeot 106 XND - (daily driver, 60mpg+ and used for autotests....)



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#47 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE (Tiggr @ Apr 17 2008, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Question is though, and this is more important for the drivers of a standard Puma fitted with this kit, can you completely disable the injection on first and possibly second? I know that you can adjust the injection timing, and I think Chris had it set to 3 seconds, but the Puma drive train has one weak spot, and thats the drive shafts. Given that as Trev stated on the other thread, that the power increase is instant ( unlike turbo or super charged ) then there is a real danger that if you are playing around with the unit that you will snap the shaft.


yep, trev covered this one....

the unit can be set to deliver 0 or 10% power delivery if you don't require much/any delivery in first or second....

also this can be set to a longer delivery time too, so the amount delivered would be VERY small if you set it up to do so...

i was really concerned about this too, but after a few practice sessions i'm not at all worried about it now.... the 50hp jet size is not too aggressive at all and can be delivered quickly in a small build time on gears 3, 4 and 5 with no traction problems at all... (on my setup anyway)...

the combination of power curve setttings, Build time and the throttle activation when WOT (Wide open throttle) is achieved makes it all very controllable... smile.gif

i think going through every gear from 1st with Nitrous, is not somthing i'll be doing that often.....but we'll see biggrin.gif

Glad you liked it... my first demo was a bit..... blush.gif laugh.gif

Chris


ps ...i am using BP Ultimate at the mo.... super is better for Nitrous Setups i think.... maybe Trev will comment on whether this is still the case with smaller shot sizes as i know it's VITAL on larger jet settings.. smile.gif

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 17 April 2008 - 11:04 AM

Wizards Of Nos 60hp progressive delivery.... yeah baby yeah :-o
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#48 Guest_Tiggr_*


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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:14 AM

The demo went well smile.gif

I got to see aceleration with no NOS, and then with NOS - I presume thats how you planned it wink.gif

#49 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:06 PM

QUOTE
I've sat there grinning.

It tends to have that effect. biggrin.gif
Thanks for posting the positive feedback.

QUOTE
Couple of questions I meant to ask Chris last night.

1) What fuel are you using?

The nitrous system just takes a supply from the OEM fuel system.

QUOTE
2) What was the % increase in your insurance?

I've had reports from some customers who have switched to Flux due to fitting nitrous and actually had a drop in insurance cost.

QUOTE
All in all, I was suitably impressed last night.

That's what I like to hear. cool.gif


QUOTE
So taking that you were running at 50% IIRC last night, my back calculations of peak power being around 200 - 210 BHP would appear to be roughly inline with "fag packet calculations" wink.gif

( I'm sure Trev will either agree or pull that to pieces smile.gif )

It's near enough for me. wink.gif

This post has been edited by Noswizard: 17 April 2008 - 12:07 PM


#50 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE
Question is though, and this is more important for the drivers of a standard Puma fitted with this kit, can you completely disable the injection on first and possibly second?

Yes that's possible but better still would be to just set the power level very low or for example;
Set the first power point to 0
Set the 2nd power point to 0
Set the 3rd power point to 20%
Set the 4th power point to 30%
Set the 5th power point to 40%
Or whatever settings suit you and your car under whatever conditions you find yourself in.

QUOTE
Given that as Trev stated on the other thread, that the power increase is instant ( unlike turbo or super charged ) then there is a real danger that if you are playing around with the unit that you will snap the shaft.

It is instant BUT as I'm sure you experienced, it is a VERY SMOOTH TRANSITION and therefore unlike ALL other makes of nitrous kit the nitrous power delivery is unlikely to cause any transmission failure if appropriate settings are employed.

#51 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:22 PM

QUOTE
I'd just like to say WOW what an excellent setup and car. I'm a big fan of well designed and engineered setups and components and after some initial research all I can say is WON products exceed expectations and appear to be some superbly designed kit.

Very kind words and its nice to have my hard work appreciated.
Sadly I have an affliction known as "perfectionism" mellow.gif and whatever I do, I'm constantly striving for perfection.
Other companies put profit at the top of their priorities but my affliction is so bad that we've even lost money for a couple of years, because I've put perfecting "quality" and "advancing nitrous technology" above all else.
I may not have made any money but I'm VERY HAPPY with all the latest products we've recently launched. biggrin.gif

#52 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE
the unit can be set to deliver 0 or 10% power delivery if you don't require much/any delivery in first or second....

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding on the power range of the system, while the Max can be set to 10%, it is not advisable to do so for the following reasons;
1) ALL solenoids have an electro-mechanical limitation to how quickly they can respond (much the same as applies to an engine)
2) No matter what signal you send to the solenoid it will ONLY work within the electro-mechanical limitations
3) MOST generic solenoids have VERY POOR electro-mechanical limitations but our Pulsoids deliver the best performance within the electro-mechanical limited range
4) The range of our nitrous Pulsoid (under average consditions) is 20% to 80%
5) Any pulse shorter than 20% will not give the Pulsoid enough time to open and any pulse longer than 80% will not allow the Pulsoid enough time to close
6) The fuel Pulsoid however is more responsive (due to having a much lower working pressure), therefore if you set the Max at 10%, the fuel Pulsoid will open but the nitrous will not and whilst this is unlikely to even be noticeable to the driver, it's unlikely to be desireable.
7) The reverse applies above 80% and the Max has a feature that allows you to "force" the fuel Pulsoid to stay on above a certain percentage to match the nitrous Pulsoids response, to ensure the mixture doesn't go lean above the nitrous Pulsoids electro-mechanical upper limit.

QUOTE
the combination of power curve setttings, Build time and the throttle activation when WOT (Wide open throttle) is achieved makes it all very controllable... smile.gif

You can say that again and if anything we have provided too much adjustability, because most people will never have the time to try out all the possible permutation that could lead to the ultimate performance from a vehicle.

QUOTE
i am using BP Ultimate at the mo.... super is better for Nitrous Setups i think.... maybe Trev will comment on whether this is still the case with smaller shot sizes as i know it's VITAL on larger jet settings.. smile.gif

There are NUMEROUS factors which contribute to achieving reliable results and unfortunately each engine will have its own requirements in this respect, however here are the main factors involved;
1) Using the correct plug grade
2) Optimising the timing (may be automatic to a degree if your vehicle has closed loop knock sensing)
3) Compression (high is good for small amounts of nitrous and low is better for big amounts)
4) Fuel octane (usually the higher the better but usually only essential at higher increases in power)
5) How much nitrous is added (the more you add the more all the other factors need to be considered/acted on)
6) How and when the nitrous is added (the higher the rpm you use the nitrous and the lower the load on the engine at the time, the less you need to be concerned about the other factors)

#53 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 07:55 PM

Thanks for that Info Trev... ja_cool.gif

so can you offer advice on this setting for 'going through the gears' as tho it were a run at the pod.... of course it will be a rough guess as you havn't driven an FRP.. bleh.gif

1st 0% 0% 20% 20% 40% Build time 6 secs
2nd 0% 20% 20% 40% 40% 5 secs
3rd 20% 40% 60% 60% 80% 4 secs
4th 40% 60% 60% 80% 80% 3 secs
etc

and this setting for a 'general boost' activated only in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear

20% 40% 60% 80% 80% 4 secs
20% 40% 60% 80% 80% 3 secs

QUOTE
because most people will never have the time to try out all the possible permutation that could lead to the ultimate performance from a vehicle.


i think thats why my first bottle ran out so quick.. bleh.gif .. spent quite a while trying out different settings going up the box.... damm it was fun... w00t.gif will take it a bit steadier now and will try to stay away from the 10% and 100% settings then.... it will be interesting to test out the possibilites even further as the season warms up a little and there is a bit more grip... smile.gif

Regards

Chris

Wizards Of Nos 60hp progressive delivery.... yeah baby yeah :-o
Denso Iridium Plugs
Helix Clutch
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#54 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE
so can you offer advice on this setting for 'going through the gears' as tho it were a run at the pod.... of course it will be a rough guess as you havn't driven an FRP.. bleh.gif

I think the 1,000s of cars I have driven/raced give me an "adequate" grasp of what would be needed. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
1st 0% 0% 20% 20% 40% Build time 6 secs
2nd 0% 20% 20% 40% 40% 5 secs
3rd 20% 40% 60% 60% 80% 4 secs
4th 40% 60% 60% 80% 80% 3 secs
etc

That's a total time of 18 secs and no customer of mine is ever going to take that long to cover the 1/4 roflmao.gif
Now as you mentioned before you can use extended build times to soften the power delivery but it's better to use the power adjustments themselves, so we'll work on that basis for now and I'll assume you can probably run in the 14 second bracket (at worst), which means I'd try the following;
1st 0% 0% 20% 20% 40% Build time 3 secs
2nd 0% 20% 20% 40% 40% - 3 secs
3rd 20% 40% 60% 80% 100% - 4 secs
4th 40% 60% 60% 80% 100% - 4 secs

QUOTE
and this setting for a 'general boost' activated only in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear
20% 40% 60% 80% 100% 4 secs
20% 40% 60% 80% 100% 3 secs

I've made some minor alterations as it seems I caused a bit of a misunderstanding.
When I said the pulsing range was 20% to 80% that didn't mean you can't use 100%, it just means that the last 20% is a JUMP rather than a smooth progression but its such a small jump that its not a problem.

QUOTE
i think thats why my first bottle ran out so quick.. bleh.gif .. spent quite a while trying out different settings going up the box.... damm it was fun... w00t.gif will take it a bit steadier now and will try to stay away from the 10% and 100% settings then.... it will be interesting to test out the possibilites even further as the season warms up a little and there is a bit more grip... smile.gif

Sounds promising to me and it's the 10% & 90% settings you need to avoid. wink.gif

Regards

Trev

#55 User is offline   ben toney 

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 03:28 PM

sounds like a great bit of kit there chris!

#56 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:46 PM

QUOTE
I think the 1,000s of cars I have driven/raced give me an "adequate" grasp of what would be needed


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif i don't doubt that for a minute... i just thought you might not want to speculate on appropriate settings on a car you might not have driven... anyway... moving on.. blush.gif smile.gif

QUOTE
That's a total time of 18 secs and no customer of mine is ever going to take that long to cover the 1/4
Now as you mentioned before you can use extended build times to soften the power delivery but it's better to use the power adjustments themselves, so we'll work on that basis for now and I'll assume you can probably run in the 14 second bracket


ah!... i think i'm getting the picture now... i thought setting 1st to a 3sec build would make the tyres go mental... laugh.gif havn't really bugeted for drive shafts yet.. unsure.gif

QUOTE
When I said the pulsing range was 20% to 80% that didn't mean you can't use 100%, it just means that the last 20% is a JUMP rather than a smooth progression but its such a small jump that its not a problem.


again, thanks again for clarifying this... ja_cool.gif ja_cool.gif

iv'e got the whole season to look forward to trying out possibilities...just hope it warms up soon!...doing my head in... mad.gif


QUOTE (ben toney @ Apr 18 2008, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
sounds like a great bit of kit there chris!


good.gif

yep you must come and see it somtime... 10.gif

Regards

Chris
frp453


ps i may as well tell the story of my first demo run with Matt... blush.gif blush.gif i floored it.... got a little surge and then unsure.gif unsure.gif Nitrous reading on the controller was 000 ohmy.gif

all was fine on the next run when i turned the bottle on..... laugh.gif laugh.gif the Max alarm didn't seem to activate ja_stupid.gif so i may need to ring you/Ant at some point to double check my settings again... smile.gif

This post has been edited by eldoodarino: 18 April 2008 - 05:48 PM

Wizards Of Nos 60hp progressive delivery.... yeah baby yeah :-o
Denso Iridium Plugs
Helix Clutch
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#57 User is offline   Noswizard 

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif i don't doubt that for a minute... i just thought you might not want to speculate on appropriate settings on a car you might not have driven... anyway... moving on.. blush.gif smile.gif

Not a problem wink.gif I do normally try to avoid speculation in all respects but it's not always possible when the alternative would be failing to provide any guidance to a customer when its needed.

QUOTE
ah!... i think i'm getting the picture now... i thought setting 1st to a 3sec build would make the tyres go mental... laugh.gif havn't really bugeted for drive shafts yet.. unsure.gif

With such low power settings 20 - 40 the build up time being double would result in virtually no difference in power delivery to reducing the 40 setting to 20 and you'd have a better idea of what exactly was happening.
If that much power was too much the only option is to reduce the initial 20% to zero

QUOTE
again, thanks again for clarifying this... ja_cool.gif ja_cool.gif

My pelasure

QUOTE
iv'e got the whole season to look forward to trying out possibilities...just hope it warms up soon!...doing my head in... mad.gif

I just hope that if and when we do get some sun, it doesn't vanish before we get chance to adjust to it.

QUOTE
all was fine on the next run when i turned the bottle on..... laugh.gif laugh.gif

Yes it certainly helps to have the bottle turned on. dry.gif

QUOTE
the Max alarm didn't seem to activate ja_stupid.gif so i may need to ring you/Ant at some point to double check my settings again... smile.gif

Ant will sort that out with you. wink.gif

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE (Noswizard @ Apr 19 2008, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes it certainly helps to have the bottle turned on. dry.gif


May be of some help, but just prior to the run, the Max was showing the bottle PSI to be around 850 then increased. Was wondering why it would be getting a reading if the bottle was off.


#59 User is offline   eldoodarino 

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 11:28 AM

because the line hadn't been disconnected there was still pressure in the line after the bottle...

does that make sense... lol..... it soon went to 000 tho... laugh.gif
Wizards Of Nos 60hp progressive delivery.... yeah baby yeah :-o
Denso Iridium Plugs
Helix Clutch
Mobil 1


#60 Guest_Tiggr_*


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Posted 21 April 2008 - 11:35 AM

Ah - good call wink.gif

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