[billy]

Looking for some advice - I've been following Zorro's recent thread on this as well.

I need to replace my tired shocks and want to go lower by 30mm. (I'm running standard size wheels/tyres and Polyflex bushes all around). I've worked out that if I go for Ford shocks and Eibach lowering springs, then I'm looking at ~£320. Alternatively, there's a nice set of AP coilovers on Pumaspeed for £350.

Question is: what's the ride like on coilovers vs. the Ford kit? I'm after less body roll, but don't want to be hammered and rattled into a pulp! Any advice appreciated.

Cheers, Billy

[BOK]

Are the AP's height adjustable?

It all depends on the setup of the coilovers- spring rate and damping which for that price I assume will be fixed. Basically the shorter the spring travel, the higher the spring rate=stiffness in order to avoid the car bottoming out on bumps.

I would suggest maybe riding in a Puma fitted with the AP setup (also worth asking if it's poly bushed as this also makes a noticeable difference) and the Eibach setup...your perception of 'hard' is VERY subjective so only you can really be the judge.

I have been in a couple of Pumas with Eibach springs and they are a good compromise in terms of price but the coilovers give better suspension control and will no doubt give a firmer ride (but read above with regards to your perception of 'hard').

Another factor is the state of the roads you use, if they're smooth then a harder ride has less effect on you...

[FlashBastd]

Interested in what people think about this as I am also considering replacing my suspension. Something that I am concerned about is wet weather handling. Currently on it's 60odd thousand mile suspension, it grips really well in the wet, and while I want to freshen up the handling, I don't really want to sacrifice wet weather grip. Plus the weather in Yorkshire is cr4p for 47 weeks of the year!

Those AP Coilovers are available for little over £300 if you shop around, but the damper element is non-adjustable, and in reality, just how useful is an adjustable ride height? Surely you should get your alignment checked whenever you alter it, which would be something of a pain?

Just out of interest, how did you arrive at £320 for the Ford / Eibach kit?

[BOK]

Grip, whether wet or in the dry would be affected in the same way depending on the suspension setup...basically you want your tyres to stay in contact with the road* which is why an over-stiff setup might ultimately give you worse handling on a rough road* surface. The state of your tyres will have more effect on wet handling than having slightly stiffer suspension. If you go mad and have rigid suspension, road* handling in all weathers will be adversely affect.

Adjustable ride height is for aesthetic and functional reasons as in the process of lowering you are effectively shortening the spring travel and making the ride stiffer. The alignment will be affected when lowering even by 30mm as with most lowering springs but once that is set, playing with adjustments on adjustable coilovers of maybe 5-10 mm isn't going to drastically affect alignmnent- I've probably lowered mine some 20-30mm more than when the alignment was first set for my coilovers and had it retested and it's still within tolerance, the tolerances for a road car obviously being a lot less precise than for a race setup.

*not to be confused with track handling.

[FlashBastd]

So you are totally satisfied with purchasing your Weitecs?

I guess the question then is how the AP's compare with the more expensive Weitecs.

[billy]

My original suspension is now at 72K miles, so it just feels a bit slow to react. Grip is good, but recovery after corners and dips in the road seems lazy. there is also still a bit of a rattle from the front suspension over rough surfaces, despite new Poly bushes and anti roll bar bushes. I reckon it may be the topmounts. Many of the roads I take are good A-roads (with the odd jarring pothole!), so AP's may be just right - in fact, I like suspension 'control', but not feeling every lump and bump.

£320 came from Ford quoting £48 each for shocks, and i've seen the Eibach springs for £120-130. So total of £320-330. Not sure if the £48 was inc. VAT. So the AP Coilovers from Pumaspeed at £350 are therefore a similar price in my book.

Just had a PM from YOG, and will try and come along to the surrey/berkshire meet to talk about it some more - though I'm moving house on Monday, so it's going to be really busy. Nice double garage where I'm going though, so that'll make mods a bit easier!

[billy]

Well - it's done. I went the Coilovers route. Bought the AP kit from Pumaspeed (£365) - very nicely engineered. Also bought new top mount isolators, fixing bolts and front top 'bearing' (is a small, solid disk, steel one side and rubber the other) from Ford. It took me the best part of a day to fit with interruptions, though much of that was trying to get the original front struts out of the hubs (lots of wiggling and tapping) and reaching the rear top mount bolts, which are awkward to reach without tearing out the boot interior. But fundamentally a straightforward job. You also ditch the weights on top of the front suspension struts in the engine bay.

The ride height is easily adjustable and allows you to get it just right - no need to remove wheels once fitted, simply work out how much lower/higher you want to go, jack it up on one side to reveal a big enough gap above the wheels to get your arms through, unscrew the grubscrew on the strut, and then twist the upper strut in either direction. Then retighten the grubscrew and lower the car to the ground.

And the big question: the ride quality? It's good - surprisingly good. Not harsh; only slightly firmer than than the original supension, but really comfortable compared to my worn shocks, which were bouncing the car a lot; it gives a more controlled ride, though it does not seem particularly wearing to me. Over broken surfaces (e.g. rough stone farm track), it is actually smoother. And the road noise levels seem to be very slightly reduced, though they were never that bad (the Toyo T1-R on original alloys + Powerflex bushes is really not much different from the original parts in my opinion, though there's lots of doom and gloom written about Powerflex and roadnoise - never understood why). So AP seem to have done a great job in matching spring and damper.

Adjusted the headlight height ~1-hour ago (surprisingly, had hardly moved) and will get it re-tracked tomorrow. I'll keep an eye on tyre wear on the inner edges. Think I'm running at ~35mm below original - looks terrific, and I'm not into that slammed look, but yet one more mod successfully completed! Just looking forward to that high speed section over Chobham Common tomorrow morning now...

[zorro]

Congrats Billy! I'm happy it's worked out well for you. Following this I'm buying the same setup in the Spring. Why did you buy the "top mount isolators, fixing bolts and front top 'bearing'"? What are the part numbers for these?

Zorro

[billy]

Congrats Billy! I'm happy it's worked out well for you. Following this I'm buying the same setup in the Spring. Why did you buy the "top mount isolators, fixing bolts and front top 'bearing'"? What are the part numbers for these?

Zorro

Thanks Zorro! I figured that the rubber components in the top mounts, which don't come as part of the coilover kit, would be pretty worn after 78k miles, so I replaced them for peace of mind. On inspection, there was definitely a height difference between new and old top mount rubber isolators - the old ones had compressed ~5-10mm, which is hardly surprising after 78k. I bought the fixing bolts because I was concerned I might knacker the original rusted ones on removal, though this was not an issue in the end. And the front top mount 'bearing' was recommended by Ford when I ordered the other parts. I cannot recall the part numbers - I'll have to dig out the receipt, but the Ford parts counter total was £85, so not an insignificant sum, but makes the fitting job a good one. There was no problem ordering the parts - there are very few components in the top mount itself.

After doing a 25 mile run to work this morning, the setup is definitely 'jigglier' at slow speed than the original - seems to be particularly noticeable at speeds under 30mph, e.g. when crawling in traffic. However, higher speeds are more controlled and you realise you are simply carrying more speed generally. Also handles speed ramps and potholes very well - none of that bucking and yawing over speed ramps anymore or bottoming out 'crash' as it goes down a hole ! And I'm sure it's slightly quieter re. road noise than the original. Might experiment with slightly higher tyre pressures again - currently on 30psi front and 29psi rear. Not sure if a change in tyre from Toyo T1-R to Michelin Pilot Sport Exalto 2 might also make an improvement to the jigglyness...

Only one suggestion if you are fitting the same kit - the rear suspension top mount nut is tricky to reach with a spanner, particularly when you are locking the top of the piston with another spanner or mole grips, underneath that side section of the rear parcel shelf. Part of the reason it is tricky is that the top mount steel cup is recessed - the nut sits in the recess, which obstructs access to the nut. So I put a couple of conventional fat washers underneath the nut (on the top surface of the mounting cup), to raise it up, giving better spanner access. There is plenty of thread on the top of the piston for fixing, so this is a safe option.

Be interested to know anyone else's opinion on these AP Coilovers - I think they're good value for money.

Billy

[zorro]

Some insightful info there, thanks. Has it affected the steering in any way do you think? Does it lend any more feedback through the wheel than the standard setup? I'm running the same tyres as you but I don't like them at anything more than the recommended pressures FWIW. There's so many things I want to do to my car, most of which are detailed in your sig, lol.

Zorro

[billy]

Steering seems to be the same feel and feedback, after getting the tracking done today. the grip went up after it was done, I think to a slightly higher level than before the coilovers went on. The balance of the car seemed better as well. Tracking was £35, but I can go back within the month for a free recheck, which makes it good value in my book (as the suspension settles further).

My signature = loads of cash. To be honest, would I have spent £130/month since 2005, to get it where it is today? Difficult to answer that question! The 130 includes all the servicing and parts fitted, but not the stereo. It's a very rewarding car to drive and I own the car outright. + I love working on it to get it just right, so would a £200/month car loan for a 2-year old GTi of some description, give me as much satisfaction? not so sure. Anyway - it's purely a philosophical question, because the money is well and truly spent now!! Your choice Zorro...

[billy]

Here are those parts codes:

F1002513 front top strut bearing £4.94 each
F1475989 lower strut bolts (think they are rears) £0.99 each
F1473444 lower strut bolts (fronts?) £1.16 each
F1039001 Top mount rubber isolator (rear?) £14.80 each
F1023587 Top mount rubber pad (front?) £15.06 each

add VAT and you're at ~£84

This post has been edited by billy: 19 January 2009 - 08:55 PM

[FlashBastd]

Interesting you revisted this thread, I went for the Ford / Eibach option on my 68k car, had similar probs with the rear nut but was able to borrow a ratchet ring spanner which made things a lot easier. I drank tea and watched while my fronts were done, and also had to ditch the top weights.

I replaced all four top mounts too, and although the old ones didn't look bad, this has cured a knock from the back end.

My parts were about £380 in total, including top mounts, Eibachs and four dampers, plus £30 to the nice chap who helped me fit them.

Not entirely sure about the ride quality, definately feels tighter, but I haven't really had chance to try it on any twisties yet. Just lousy suburban tarmac where it seems marginally better than it was. Definately no worse though.

[billy]

excellent - be interested to know how you find it as you start driving it harder. Replacing the top mount isolators has to be a good thing - it really is pleasing not to hear any random creaks and bangs anymore! I need some new tools but it's tools or parts for the car, so guess what wins?!

[zorro]

Brilliant mate, thanks! I know what you're getting at though as regards to outlay. I'm partial to doing the same thing with my computers, though obviously not the same kinda numbers. Still glad I haven't lined the pockets of Dell thus far, lol. I'm going to copy & paste this info into a text document and pass it on to my local parts counter. I can see the logic in changing these parts too. I initially intended to just go for the Eibach lowering springs but as discussed in another thread this is only going to highlight and exacerbate the 40-odd thousand miles already put on the shocks. If I then need to replace those as well as the springs then I might as well go the whole hog, as it were.

Zorro.

[FlashBastd]

Car! I can usually borrow tools from the tech's at a relatives garage, or better still, ask them nicely to help me do it!

My next mod is the FRP exhaust, manifold and airbox mod, I think then our cars will have a lot in common.

I am running 16's with 300mm brakes, Goodrich hoses, powerflex rear beam and FRP front bushes, 20mm hub spacers, and soon 15mm front spacers, but I don't have any uprated ECU and only have a standard panel filter.

Did you get the map done after the exhaust, or at the same time?

[billy]

Did you get the map done after the exhaust, or at the same time?

Remap via the flash tuner (Pumabuild's own map recommended by them) was done after the exhaust - I did it because I was disappointed with the mismatch in power to noise from the exhaust! the midrange torque seemed to drop off. The remap seemed to bring the power and torque back again and suits the higher air flow through the engine. And the fuel economy hardly suffered after the remap - perhaps 4% more fuel max.

[chris3boro]

How much have you lowered it then? Get some pics up asap!!

[billy]

How much have you lowered it then? Get some pics up asap!!

Here you go - about 40mm - note the rear is still higher, just like the original set-up - it really helps turn-in on corners. Rear view is nicely chunky now (also fitted 12.5mm rear hub spacers).

[billy]

I thought I'd post an update on my suspension: after ~1000 miles, I'm loving the AP Coilovers! Can't recommend them enough. they give an excellent ride, which has improved further - I reckon it's smoother and more controlled than the original (worn) Ford struts. Bumps are much less crashy and the cornering character is very similar with less body roll. Also enjoyed tweeking the ride height. It settled a few mm further, so needed to get the tracking re-set (had a free re-check and adjust) and grip and steering is now spot on. If you're in doubt, go for it! Highly recommended.